TfL denied Uber operator license, ride hailing service wins on appeal (Sept 2020)

[Guineveretoo]

I totally don't get people who get taxis in central London during the day at all (unless in a hurry for an appointment), like people who take them to get to a restaurant after work in the middle of town. I mean, WTF, get the fucking tube or bus! Or even.... walk.

I used to get upset at sentiments like this being expressed.

When I worked in central London I often got taxis because I am disabled and struggle to walk distances, or even to walk short distances quickly and, even more so, to manage stairs.

I also struggle to stand on tubes and buses, and they are often crowded in central London, and not just in the rush hour.

Some tube stations have really long walks within them, and many have lots of stairs. There were occasions where I was in considerable pain climbing stairs to get around tube stations, and sometimes I was late for the meeting because it took me so long to get up and down those stairs and along those long walks.

Eventually, and after quite a battle with my employer who felt like you, and sought to ignore the provisions of the Equality Act, or to care about their employees, I had an agreement that I could get cabs. Although I still had to justify it, in writing, every single time.

Sometimes, colleagues who were not disabled would travel around central London carrying a promotional banner and boxes of files and papers. They got taxis as well.

Black cabs, although prolific in Central London, are not good for people like me because they are really difficult to get in and out of.

If Uber had existed then, I would have used them!

 

[Orang Utan]

You keep saying this but here in Brum it is cheaper for me to get a taxi and back to some places than it is to get the bus for two people.

It can be cheaper in Leeds too, but I'm talking about London

 

[Guineveretoo]

I got an Uber yesterday morning from my house to the station. I had little choice, since this was so early in the morning that there were no buses running.

There is no night bus service where I live, even though it is London, and there is no tube.

i asked the driver what he thought about the announcement they day before and he just shrugged and said he would work for someone else.

i got a bus home last night, from the station, because I was paying for myself and, although I was exhausted after a long day, Uber doubled their price because it was a Saturday night, and high demand, so I went and waited for a bus instead. Luckily, I only had to wait less than 10 minutes, and got a seat.

If my back and knees had been bad, though, I would have really struggled, because there is no seat the bus stop near the station.

There have been times when I have stood at that stop for ages and then, when the bus comes, it is too crowded and I can't get on it. One time recently, when this happened, I was in so much pain from standing around, that I just burst into tears. And ordered an Uber that came in two minutes.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Uber signalled last night that it was prepared to make concessions on safety and treating its drivers as employees as it battled to rescue its business in London.

Speaking to The Sunday Times, Tom Elvidge, Uber’s general manager in London, appealed directly to TfL and the city’s mayor, Sadiq Khan, saying: “We’d like to know what we can do . . . to sit down and work together to get this right.”

Elvidge’s words are a significant change of tone since Friday, when he said he was “astounded” at the decision to strip…

Uber shifts gear on drivers’ rights after London ban

No surprise there, I expect something will be worked out, resulting in better conditions for drivers & passengers alike.

 

[Gramsci]

The real analogy is with driverless cars, in which Uber is heavily involved.

With GPS and now route selection with real-time congestion, we're part-way through the process.

It must come hard to someone who has tried hard to break out of generational poverty through years of self study.

Generational poverty wasn't broken by individual self study. It was the post war Labour government.

Middle aged man I know. Born and bred Londoner. Worked on markets and van delivery now. He remembers his grandmother telling him of the dire poverty her family lived in London. His parents had it better. Council housing, NHS - the post war welfare state. He got his Council house. For his generation this was looking like a social right. Its not just about wages it's also about social rights.

This went with Thatcher.

 

[Gramsci]

This seems muddled.

In what sense are you equating 3 to 5 year knowledge learning of a Black Cab driver with the manual labour of a docker?

The reason there are no dockers and printers is because of containers and technology or, in London, docks. Even the storing and loading of containers is automated. They were well paid 'for a time' because of strong unionisation.

I'm equating it from chatting to old guys who used to work in these jobs.

I remember a guy who used to work as a porter in the old Covent Garden. Years ago when it was a fruit and veg in Covent Garden. He said they were racking it in. The wages plus the various tolerated scams they did.

So these jobs did equate with working as Black Cab driver. For a short period.

I was helping a van driver I know in Canary wharf. He told me that he grew up there and now it's changed completely now. A lot of the men he grew up with ended up in and out of prison. Once the lucrative dockers jobs went bank robbing etc became another career option.

 

[The Fornicator]

Generational poverty wasn't broken by individual self study. It was the post war Labour government.

Middle aged man I know. Born and bred Londoner. Worked on markets and van delivery now. He remembers his grandmother telling him of the dire poverty her family lived in London. His parents had it better. Council housing, NHS - the post war welfare state. He got his Council house. For his generation this was looking like a social right. Its not just about wages it's also about social rights.

This went with Thatcher.

I'm sorry but generational poverty is not broken. I see it, I work with it, every day in Bermondsey.

You appear to be referring to a social contract, I'm not sure it's helpful in the context of my points. Much of the purpose of 'self improvement' is/was to break from state provided reliance. They aspire to the suburbs and smaller class sizes, to self determination and opportunity. These people do not aspire to a better council flat.

 

[binka]

One of the big taxi companies in Manchester is called Street Cars and turns out they have an app that works similar to Uber. Will give them a go for a bit see how it compares.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm sorry but generational poverty is not broken. I see it, I work with it, every day in Bermondsey.

You appear to be referring to a social contract, I'm not sure it's helpful in the context of my points. Much of the purpose of 'self improvement' is/was to break from state provided reliance. They aspire to the suburbs and smaller class sizes, to self determination and opportunity. These people do not aspire to a better council flat.

It's not helpful because you are right wing. Take a look at what your saying it's Thatcherite.

As has been posted on this thread further up this kind of stuff is so normalised now that people who come out with it don't see it as right wing.

 

[Cloo]

Totally fair point Guineveretoo - I know I might not know if someone using cabs was doing so due to disability (although all the people I know of doing it don't have any). I can appreciate that cheaper cab usage would be a godsend for those for whom public transport is sadly not a goer.

 

[Gramsci]

Black cabs, although prolific in Central London, are not good for people like me because they are really difficult to get in and out of.

m!

Is that still the case? The new boring looking Black Cabs have big side doors with a built in ramp. I would have thought they are better for people with disabilities than the ubititious Uber Prius in central London.

On technology. Apps are great. So is automation. I read Marx Capital volume one and he says that the increase in productivity by mechanisation can at least reduce the working week. Eventually abolish wage slavery.

The problem still exists that this technology is in the hands of capitalists.

Things like apps could be used to make transport a lot easier for people with disabilities. If we lived in economy under democratic control.

Really now my mates in courier and cab industry should not be working fifty or sixty hours a week to make a living.

My problem with Uber is more to do with the downward push on wages and conditions. That is how my Black Cab friends see it when I talk to them. The Black Cab industry is regulated- in the workers favour. Unlike Uber.

 

[maomao]

Is that still the case? The new boring looking Black Cabs have big side doors with a built in ramp. I would have thought they are better for people with disabilities than the ubititious Uber Prius in central London.

Black cabs are better for wheelchairs. Standard saloons are better than black cabs for bad backs and hip problems (because you can sit straight down rather than having to bend over and walk in). All as a rule of thumb of course, individuals may have their own preferences.

 

[William of Walworth]

I've never hired an Uber-vehicle. I've been reading about all this loads though, since Friday.

When I lived in London, I only ever took black cabs when sharing with two or three others. That need was rare.

I'm right now aware that there are shedloads of people signing petitions to object to TFL's decision against Uber. Unions seem entirely in support of the decision though. I'm obviously aware as well that many Uber drivers are unhappy -- but how unhappy are they with Uber, rather than with TFL? Have they asked themselves that? Cop on.

But I just want to say fuck Uber basically. Uber could regain their licence to operate VERY EASILY -- make all your drivers contracted employees. Like the Enmployment Tribunal's already ruled.

Drop THAT appeal, against the tribunal, , and also wipe out that Greyball shit, and you could equally easily get around needing to appeal against TFL's decision at all. Negotiation would be there for the asking.

Piece of piss, you capitalist cunts

(Apologies for getting in on the very end of this thread -- I haven't time to read it )

 

[William of Walworth]

My problem with Uber is more to do with the downward push on wages and conditions. That is how my Black Cab friends see it when I talk to them. The Black Cab industry is regulated- in the workers favour. Unlike Uber.

Spot on!

 

[The Fornicator]

It's not helpful because you are right wing. Take a look at what your saying it's Thatcherite.

As has been posted on this thread further up this kind of stuff is so normalised now that people who come out with it don't see it as right wing.

Don't be a clown. What's 'normalised' is generational poverty - something you seem to believe was ended by Clem Atlee. Do me a normalised fucking favour.

 

[Gramsci]

Don't be a clown. What's 'normalised' is generational poverty - something you seem to believe was ended by Clem Atlee. Do me a normalised fucking favour.

What's normalised is attitudes like yours about people who are poor pulling themselves up by there own bootstraps and not relying on the state.

It's Thatcherite.

It's hardly radical to see that post war the working class gained from NHS and Council housing.

It's Thatcher who put an end to this.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Is that still the case? The new boring looking Black Cabs have big side doors with a built in ramp. I would have thought they are better for people with disabilities than the ubititious Uber Prius in central London.

On technology. Apps are great. So is automation. I read Marx Capital volume one and he says that the increase in productivity by mechanisation can at least reduce the working week. Eventually abolish wage slavery.

The problem still exists that this technology is in the hands of capitalists.

Things like apps could be used to make transport a lot easier for people with disabilities. If we lived in economy under democratic control.

Really now my mates in courier and cab industry should not be working fifty or sixty hours a week to make a living.

My problem with Uber is more to do with the downward push on wages and conditions. That is how my Black Cab friends see it when I talk to them. The Black Cab industry is regulated- in the workers favour. Unlike Uber.

Yes, it is still the case. You have to bend over and then step up to get into a black cab. For someone with a bad back, and/or bad knees, that is difficult.

Getting out is even harder - I really struggle to get out of a black cab and it is always really painful.

I am sure everyone would agree about the need to regulate Uber, and to support the unions in their fight to get the drivers recognised as employees so that they get employment rights.

I have friends who drive black cabs as well, but many of those have to work silly hours to make a living, because of the cost of renting or buying the cab itself. Most black cab drivers are not legally classed as workers either, let alone employees, so have no security or employment rights, and no chance of getting any, since they are regulated on an individual basis only.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Totally fair point Guineveretoo - I know I might not know if someone using cabs was doing so due to disability (although all the people I know of doing it don't have any). I can appreciate that cheaper cab usage would be a godsend for those for whom public transport is sadly not a goer.

What you said is that you couldn't understand why anyone would get cabs in Central London. As well as people like me who are disabled, I can think of lots of other reasons why people would get cabs.

Public transport in London is not as accessible as it could/should be, and that is to our shame.

When i was in Barcelona recently, I was struck by how every single subway station had lifts from the street and to every level. No stairs at all, I know the London system is the oldest in the world, but to be so appallingly inaccessible - to have so many stairs and so few lifts - is just dreadful.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes, it is still the case. You have to bend over and then step up to get into a black cab. For someone with a bad back, and/or bad knees, that is difficult.

Getting out is even harder - I really struggle to get out of a black cab and it is always really painful.

I am sure everyone would agree about the need to regulate Uber, and to support the unions in their fight to get the drivers recognised as employees so that they get employment rights.

I have friends who drive black cabs as well, but many of those have to work silly hours to make a living, because of the cost of renting or buying the cab itself. Most black cab drivers are not legally classed as workers either, let alone employees, so have no security or employment rights, and no chance of getting any, since they are regulated on an individual basis only.

Black Cab drivers are classified as self employed. But they have more rights than say an Uber or Addison Lee driver in practice over how there industry is run. What they charge is not arbitary either. From what I've been told prices are set.

As I said before a main criticism of Uber is that it's the same, in central London , as hailing a cab. Black Cabs are only cabs allowed to pick up paassengers without pre booking. Why there have been arguments about length of time to book a Uber and it's arrival. It's direct competition and has hit Black Cab drivers.

 

[Dogsauce]

When i was in Barcelona recently, I was struck by how every single subway station had lifts from the street and to every level. No stairs at all, I know the London system is the oldest in the world, but to be so appallingly inaccessible - to have so many stairs and so few lifts - is just dreadful.

They were making quite good progress on this, then Boris happened. It's fucking embarrassingly bad in so many places, I know how hard it is with a lightweight collapsible baby buggy, it must be ten times worse for a wheelchair user.

 

[Guineveretoo]

They were making quite good progress on this, then Boris happened. It's fucking embarrassingly bad in so many places, I know how hard it is with a lightweight collapsible baby buggy, it must be ten times worse for a wheelchair user.

Most of the network is impossible for a wheelchair user!

It's difficult for people with mobility problems, but just impossible for many people.

 

[kabbes]

I think that spending my whole working life in an incredibly highly regulated industry has given me no sympathy with uber on this whatsoever. When we make plans at work, our first, second and third thoughts are always on whether it meets the regulations and how we can explain it to and get it past the regulator. No regulator approval, no business. If you want to operate in a regulated environment, that's how you have to approach it. You can't just do what you want and then whine when the regulator sanctions you.

 

[redsquirrel]

I think that spending my whole working life in an incredibly highly regulated industry has given me no sympathy with uber on this whatsoever. When we make plans at work, our first, second and third thoughts are always on whether it meets the regulations and how we can explain it to and get it past the regulator. No regulator approval, no business. If you want to operate in a regulated environment, that's how you have to approach it. You can't just do what you want and then whine when the regulator sanctions you.

And lets be clear this whine is a deliberate tactic to attack regulations and undermine conditions.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I think that spending my whole working life in an incredibly highly regulated industry has given me no sympathy with uber on this whatsoever. When we make plans at work, our first, second and third thoughts are always on whether it meets the regulations and how we can explain it to and get it past the regulator. No regulator approval, no business. If you want to operate in a regulated environment, that's how you have to approach it. You can't just do what you want and then whine when the regulator sanctions you.

It's okay though, Uber are willing to discuss this with TfL- I am sure you would tell a grateful FCA that you may be willing to discuss a compromise should your product fail to meet the regulations.

Sadly this is not exceptional - we see this all the time with wealthy aggressive corporations

 

[killer b]

reading this piece this morning, seems pretty comprehensive

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/

 

[kabbes]

reading this piece this morning, seems pretty comprehensive

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/

That's an interesting article, full of stuff that I didn't know.

 

[redsquirrel]

Good pithy summary of much of the debate from that piece

– because being an innovative startup is ‘sexy’. Being a large company ignoring the rules isn’t.

 

[Artaxerxes]

What you said is that you couldn't understand why anyone would get cabs in Central London. As well as people like me who are disabled, I can think of lots of other reasons why people would get cabs.

Public transport in London is not as accessible as it could/should be, and that is to our shame.

When i was in Barcelona recently, I was struck by how every single subway station had lifts from the street and to every level. No stairs at all, I know the London system is the oldest in the world, but to be so appallingly inaccessible - to have so many stairs and so few lifts - is just dreadful.

Compared to the rest of the UK London public transport is a sacred Eden, a miracle of convenience, a benchmark of quality.

Thats not a defence of London transport, just a sign of how bloody awful the network is outside of the capital. I would not want to take a pram or a wheelchair on the tube at just about any time of day.

 

[not-bono-ever]

i am quite surprised at the petition on this - its quite telling how easily people are flogged a bisaed narrative and back (for what a petition is worth) the premise without maybe digesting the full story- 750k so far. we really are a wretched country

 

[Guineveretoo]

Not the ones I've seen with big Uber stickers on the door

I have never seen that. And I am a fairly prolific Uber user