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Sunak promises to introduce mandatory national service for 18 year olds

Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?
Besides anything else, the logic behind conscription/national service at least in supposed liberal democracies is that even though in general people have the right not to be compelled into labour/service, there are certain cases where there is a need that cannot be fulfilled by voluntary labour, and therefore it is necessary to curtail people's rights for the 'greater good'. You can then argue whether the benefits are actually worth the restrictions on liberty, and even whether the 'greater good' is a good at all, but at least in smaller countries where most people recognize a threat from a larger belligerent neighbour, then many people will probably also accept that it is better maintain a large reserve force, and have a larger pool of trained citizens who can be called up if needed.

That's evidently not the case here, because there is no such need for a larger pool labour. In fact having decided that 18 year olds should be compelled into service, they are now scrambling around to find things that need doing, the exact opposite of how things "should" work. All of the justifications for national service have not been based on what needs to be done, but that there are some deficiencies in the youth as a whole that need to be ironed out. So because the Tories (or the voters they are pandering to) don't like the attitude of the youth, they need to have their freedoms restricted by being compelled into work. All from the party of 'personal liberty'.
 
Disrespectful Wretch #1 WhatsApp'd me this morning to ask if I was in charge of this goat rodeo - upon learning that it's nothing to do with me, she became more upbeat, and suggested that in that case, it might work.

Honestly, my children are such cunts.
Nothing a spot of National Service wouldn't sort out.

(having seen I'm four pages back, I fully expect to see that this has been said 47 times before my post comes up in the thread :mad:)
 
Nothing a spot of National Service wouldn't sort out.

(having seen I'm four pages back, I fully expect to see that this has been said 47 times before my post comes up in the thread :mad:)

Amusingly, she's joined the TA (I'm supposed to call it the Army Reserve, but I'm old, and it's still the TA to me...), less amusingly, this has made her somewhat less in awe of my magnificence.

She did, apparently, enjoy the 'so, have you got any family who've been in the Army?' question....
 
The UK is preparing for war
Not like this, they aren't.

If they were properly preparing for war, they'd be resourcing the MOD properly, encouraging decent quality candidates to sign up, training them properly, and making being in the military something that competent, able people wanted to do. Not hoovering up a bunch of disaffected yoot who aren't going to see the point in enduring discomfort and privation, not to mention some performative warm-fields-of-the-past 1950s style bootcamping just to give a bunch of no-hoper populist politician cosplayers the gravy strokes.
 
Amusingly, she's joined the TA (I'm supposed to call it the Army Reserve, but I'm old, and it's still the TA to me...), less amusingly, this has made her somewhat less in awe of my magnificence.

She did, apparently, enjoy the 'so, have you got any family who've been in the Army?' question....
Did she lie?

"Nah, I think my great-grandad was in the Merchant Navy during the last Unpleasantness, and great-grandma was in the WRAC, but nothing else that I know of...", type thing?
 
Not like this, they aren't.

If they were properly preparing for war, they'd be resourcing the MOD properly, encouraging decent quality candidates to sign up, training them properly, and making being in the military something that competent, able people wanted to do. Not hoovering up a bunch of disaffected yoot who aren't going to see the point in enduring discomfort and privation, not to mention some performative warm-fields-of-the-past 1950s style bootcamping just to give a bunch of no-hoper populist politician cosplayers the gravy strokes.

That’s not actually the plan that’s been announced, tbf.
 
At least one of those countries only offers national service to very promising kids, who are then in huge demand from employers after they have completed university and their service period. That sounds quite good for social mobility, and is a mile away from mandatory conscription.

No-one would mind if the armed forces were offering tuition fees bursaries with a three year service commitment or somesuch.
But of course what this "government" is looking for is cheap solutions. The only things they invest in are their mates' PPE companies and offshore hedge funds. Not silly things like the country itself, or the future of its younger citizens.

Which reminds me - I listened to a very interesting debate about why the minimum age of the Ukrainian callup is so high (mid-late 20s or so). And the reason is that Ukraine is reluctant to send the flower of its youth into battle to die and be maimed, only to have a lot less population remaining when it's all over. On that basis, I wonder why Rish! and his gammony friends are quite so enthusiastic to sign up our youth for similar...
 
Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?
I've spoken to a few Finnish men about conscription. I wouldn't get too dewy-eyed about it. It's widely resented. Same in South Korea.
 
Btw, do grammar schools really have CCFs? I only ask because the one I went to is exactly the sort that would (it even had a rifle range ffs), but it didn’t.
Yes; some do.
In the London Borough of Sutton, which retains selective secondary education, some of the grammars have CCF corps.
 
On the subject of "fond memories" of national service, my father did always say he had an easy time in Egypt in 1947. He told me though that he acted a bit incompetent and incapable around his superiors so they didn't know what to do with him and his sergent was a kindly sort of chap and nothing like the stereotypes on telly like Ain't Half Hot, Mum and Get Some In. So he ended up with all the doss jobs it'd be hard to fuck up. I don't think he ever read Svejk but dad's stories put me in mind of that book.

All that said, he knew that most conscripts had a rough time of it and he was just lucky. If he was around today, I'm pretty sure he'd see this latest stunt as pure bollocks.
 
Maybe National service if not the military service element is a solution to who will pick crops in fields?
And then report back that there are no viable crops because of increased rainfall following climate change, and get locked up for sedition.
 
It might clarify the discussion if we separated the argument for conscription due to perceived military threats and/or foreign policy from some notion of civic duty or national service. Military conscription or the UK called national service from the late 1940s to the early 1960s is very different from the civil national service proposed by the Tories, and I think at one time discussed by the Blairites., and that which often is offered as an alternative in countries that have military conscription. The current proposals are cobbled together and marketed with outcomes and objectives as 'a shared sense of purpose among our young people and a renewed sense of pride in our country', learn "real world skills, do new things and contributing to their community and our country". '"addressing the fragmentation in society" , and 'getting young people out of their bubble'.

Conscription or retro national service is about expanding the capacity of reservists or those with some basic military training. In the post war period it was mainly used to bolster policing the fragmentation of the British Empire It was not about giving young people a sense of purpose or structure, community cohesion , civic pride, increasing citizenship ship , or bringing together people from diverse backgrounds, not did it install a sense of discipline in lawless youth. In fact, the youth and young people's crime rate rose from the late 1940s to the early sixties. it was never measured or assessed on those outcomes.

Whilst we on the subject of happy countries , research on what makes countries, and indeed places happy, suggests that reducing inequality, maximising health, trust in neighbours and communities and trust in governments are key drivers rather than conscription. It should also be noted that in some of these liberal happy states the section of the population most unhappy are indeed young people to the point where Finland has one of the highest suicide rates within Europe. There is nothing uniform about attitudes to conscription in Europe simply a minority have it and a majority don't. For every socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive country that has it, we have illiberals promoting it as in Italy where the fascist Salvinni is a strong advocate. Conversely, liberal, socially cohesive Spain abolished it in the early 2000's it after a long and successful campaign by the' insumisos' movement.

There may well be an argument for a service or service that helps foster within young people a sense of national pride, citizenship etc even basic skills and guidance , assists with the transition into adulthood and gets young people out of their bubble but let's face it that service isn't going to be a throwback to 'you're in the army now' or something that comes with sanctions. However, I don't think that those whose eyes light up at the mention of the word national service are really advocating such a service anyway. Those who want to argue for military conscription need to put their cards on the table be honest and say actually it will be compulsory, it's will being imposed, there will be sanctions for those that try and avoid it and it's solely for the benefit of boosting the capacity of a trained reserve for armed forces because your state thinks it might need to go to war. They could even use dancing TikTok videos to promote it.
 
Finland’s suicide rate is comparable not with its geographical neighbours but with Hungary’s, suggesting that Uralic conditions its speakers to more despair than Indo-European languages do.
 
Finland’s suicide rate is comparable not with its geographical neighbours but with Hungary’s, suggesting that Uralic conditions its speakers to more despair than Indo-European languages do.
Difficult to find recent stats
 
Difficult to find recent stats
Interesting article illustrates how core issues regarding suicide in Finland were identified and attempts to address them via a research based approach.
 
It might clarify the discussion if we separated the argument for conscription due to perceived military threats and/or foreign policy from some notion of civic duty or national service. Military conscription or the UK called national service from the late 1940s to the early 1960s is very different from the civil national service proposed by the Tories, and I think at one time discussed by the Blairites., and that which often is offered as an alternative in countries that have military conscription. The current proposals are cobbled together and marketed with outcomes and objectives as 'a shared sense of purpose among our young people and a renewed sense of pride in our country', learn "real world skills, do new things and contributing to their community and our country". '"addressing the fragmentation in society" , and 'getting young people out of their bubble'.
..

Yeah - the French equivalent makes a (vaguely) interesting read... I imagine the Sunak model is more like this than 1950s squarebashing.

Service National Universel | SNU

(google translate is your friend..)
 
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