Sunak promises to introduce mandatory national service for 18 year olds

[Spymaster]

The armed forces in the countries you listed are actual defence forces.

Whereas your lot couldn't defend a duck from water. They're a force-projection outfit. An increasingly pathetic one at that.

And that a Spookyplank FACT!

 

[quimcunx]

Well, my dad speaks very fondly of his time doing national service.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm fortunate to know a lot of youngsters who'd be a credit to national service of some sort and likely welcome it. Unfortunately, a lot of the others are feckless arseholes who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the armed forces. That's why this policy is a stinker.

 

[PR1Berske]

Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?

British culture is very different to mainland Europe. Putting British teenagers into even the most rudimentary Army roles would be an echo of a bygone age, something disconnected to how we do things here. Military recruitment is considered separate to everyday life.

But over this entire thing is the desperate plea of a tired political party. It's pure Tufton Street. We're mocking it for two main reasons, really: it's not what we do here, and it's laughable as a policy regardless.

 

[Dogsauce]

​

I see Byline Times like most of the rest of the media (particularly during Brexit discussions) seems to equate ‘working class’ with white, middle aged and with a regional accent. Shame we seem to be stuck on that stereotype as it excludes huge chunks of the population and doesn’t help build solidarity. You’d hope they would be better than this.

 

[RevolutionSound]

Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?

The Tories have spent the last 40 years or so, destroying social cohesion. For any kind of national service to work in this country, would require that to be repaired first.

 

[Monte]

If it would mean that youngsters are taught not to wear their trousers half way down their arses I'm all for it.

 

[Nikkormat]

The Tories have spent the last 40 years or so, destroying social cohesion. For any kind of national service to work in this country, would require that to be repaired first.

I think this is the main issue for me. I could, under some circumstances, be in favour of a form of national service, but people need to be valued by their society, and to value that society, to feel that it is worth defending. For that, Britain needs a complete reform of political culture first.

 

[andysays]

Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?

At least part of the difference is precisely that those countries are more socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive. If people in general and young people in particular feel some sense of belonging to a society in which they are valued, then the idea of service of some sort to that society will be generally acceptable.

But in a country where political leaders have spent the past four decades actively dismantling and destroying any sense of community or collective society which might once have existed, it's hardly surprising that people in general and young people in particular regard the idea of service to the nation with a certain amount of skepticism.

 

[brogdale]

If any more evidence were needed that the rat-boy circle had just pulled this 'policy' idea out of their arses...

 

[May Kasahara]

The Tories have spent the last 40 years or so, destroying social cohesion. For any kind of national service to work in this country, would require that to be repaired first.

Indeed. My 'favourite' part of this announcement is Sunak's attempted justification on the grounds that "generations of young people have not had the opportunities or experience they deserve". Why the fuck is that then, do you think, latest in a long line of incompetent Tory PMs leading a morally bankrupt party on a crusade to fuck up everything in sight?

 

[kebabking]

The UK is preparing for war

Yes, it is.

Not nearly deeply, widely, or quickly enough - imv - but yes, it is.

I don't know if you think this is a secret, but it's been repeatedly discussed in public speeches and articles by the three service chiefs, the chief of the defence staff, two consecutive defence secretaries, and any number of armed forces and procurement ministers - as well as their Labour shadows - for more than two years.

The official UK government prediction/belief is that the current/foreseeable Russian government intends to conduct hybrid and conventional warfare (and that means an invasion, for those not up on bollockspeak...) of the Baltic states in the next five to ten years, and that the hybrid campaign has already started. There are two caveats that the UK government believes might change/effect/accelerate that: 1) a material, military defeat in Ukraine - which looks less likely than it did 18 months ago - and 2) a significant increase in NATO military capacity, readiness and resilience.

So, yeah, it is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed. My 'favourite' part of this announcement is Sunak's attempted justification on the grounds that "generations of young people have not had the opportunities or experience they deserve". Why the fuck is that then, do you think, latest in a long line of incompetent Tory PMs leading a morally bankrupt party on a crusade to fuck up everything in sight?

I think we all deserve a chance to decorate lampposts up and down the land with tory mps, peers and members of the Royal family. When will rishi sunak offer these opportunities to today's generations?

 

[Silas Loom]

Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?

At least one of those countries only offers national service to very promising kids, who are then in huge demand from employers after they have completed university and their service period. That sounds quite good for social mobility, and is a mile away from mandatory conscription.

No-one would mind if the armed forces were offering tuition fees bursaries with a three year service commitment or somesuch.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, it is.

Not nearly deeply, widely, or quickly enough - imv - but yes, it is.

I don't know if you think this is a secret, but it's been repeatedly discussed in public speeches and articles by the three service chiefs, the chief of the defence staff, two consecutive defence secretaries, and any number of armed forces and procurement ministers - as well as their Labour shadows - for more than two years.

The official UK government prediction/belief is that the current/foreseeable Russian government intends to conduct hybrid and conventional warfare (and that means an invasion, for those not up on bollockspeak...) of the Baltic states in the next five to ten years, and that the hybrid campaign has already started. There are two caveats that the UK government believes might change/effect/accelerate that: 1) a material, military defeat in Ukraine - which looks less likely than it did 18 months ago - and 2) a significant in NATO military capacity, readiness and resilience.

So, yeah, it is.

Your 2) - a significant what?

 

[planetgeli]

No-one would mind if the armed forces were offering tuition fees bursaries with a three year service commitment or somesuch.

This already happens. Except it's 4 years.

 

[Silas Loom]

This already happens. Except it's 4 years.

So a serious policy aimed at strengthening the armed forces and attracting a better crop of recruits would just make this offer more compelling and maybe extend it to civil resilience sectors.

It’s the mandatory conscription which makes this unworkable and as everyone is saying today (and I think I said yesterday) the Nordics have far better social cohesion and in some cases are at direct risk of invasion across land borders with Russia, so are in a completely different position.

 

[andysays]

At least one of those countries only offers national service to very promising kids, who are then in huge demand from employers after they have completed university and their service period. That sounds quite good for social mobility, and is a mile away from mandatory conscription.

No-one would mind if the armed forces were offering tuition fees bursaries with a three year service commitment or somesuch.

That appears to be what is being proposed here

The scheme being proposed now would not force anyone to do military training, Home Secretary James Cleverly told the BBC. It would be made up of two broad streams for 18-year-olds to choose from:

• Community volunteering: Spending one weekend every month - which equates to 25 days over a 12-month period - volunteering with organisations such as the NHS, fire service, ambulance, search and rescue, and critical local infrastructure
• Military training: Applying for one of up to 30,000 “selective” military placements reserved for teenagers deemed the “brightest and the best” in areas like logistics, cyber security, procurement or civil response operations over a year-long period

The vast majority of 18-year-olds would not take part in any military training at all.

In other words, it's a blatantly two tier systems, where most kids will get ill thought out, ill funded and largely pointless "community volunteering"

 

[Silas Loom]

That appears to be what is being proposed here



In other words, it's a blatantly two tier systems, where most kids will get ill thought out, ill funded and largely pointless "community volunteering"

So it’s a bait and switch: tell elderly voters it’s The Army Game but then actually do Misfits.

 

[brogdale]

That appears to be what is being proposed here



In other words, it's a blatantly two tier systems, where most kids will get ill thought out, ill funded and largely pointless "community volunteering"

Yes, that measly 30k figure looks suspiciously like an effective 1 year extension of CCF for those at public/Grammar schools with corps

e2a: yeah, if they were looking for a 'ball-park' number for their out of the arse idea, there it was:

 

[Karl Masks]

The fall of britain, enabled by Daz using his cyber security placement to watch porn and order government funded Ubers for his mates

 

[Silas Loom]

Yes, that measly 30k figure looks suspiciously like an effective 1 year extension of CCF for those at public/Grammar schools with corps

e2a: yeah, if they were looking for a 'ball-park' number for their out of the arse idea, there it was:

View attachment 426150

Although it’s still three times as many as the current intake, according to this milnerd blog, which would mean spending a fortune on accommodation, transport, vetting etc, besides dedicating an insupportable amount of current resource to training.

National Service Numbers - An Objective Analysis of Costs

A blog about UK defence issues which tries to put a positive and fresh look at many current matters impacting UK and wider defence.

thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com

 

[brogdale]

Although it’s still three times as many as the current intake, according to this milnerd blog, which would mean spending a fortune on accommodation, transport, vetting etc, besides dedicating an insupportable amount of current resource to training.

National Service Numbers - An Objective Analysis of Costs

A blog about UK defence issues which tries to put a positive and fresh look at many current matters impacting UK and wider defence.

thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com

Yes, but here we are again trying to make sense of desperate vermin nonsense!

 

[seeformiles]

This is just Sunak throwing any old shite at the wall and hoping it’ll stick. I bet he’ll promise to restore capital punishment before this electoral shitshow is over.

 

[Silas Loom]

Yes, that measly 30k figure looks suspiciously like an effective 1 year extension of CCF for those at public/Grammar schools with corps

e2a: yeah, if they were looking for a 'ball-park' number for their out of the arse idea, there it was:

View attachment 426150

Btw, do grammar schools really have CCFs? I only ask because the one I went to is exactly the sort that would (it even had a rifle range ffs), but it didn’t.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Btw, do grammar schools really have CCFs? I only ask because the one I went to is exactly the sort that would (it even had a rifle range ffs), but it didn’t.

The posher private schools tend to.

BB2 will start a secondary comp in September and that does too, which AFAIK is very unusual, it's cos the school is tied in with the public school in the town.

 

[Silas Loom]

The posher private schools tend to.

BB2 will start a secondary comp in September and that does too, which AFAIK is very unusual, it's cos the school is tied in with the public school in the town.

Should be an excellent way of instilling automatic mistrust and contempt for the officer class.

 

[moochedit]

Well, my dad speaks very fondly of his time doing national service.

 

[two sheds]

which would mean spending a fortune on accommodation, transport, vetting etc, besides dedicating an insupportable amount of current resource to training.

I think I see a weak point in your argument there

 

[moochedit]

Ok, it's a desperate flag waved for purely electoral purposes by a bunch of spivs who have no interest in defence or social cohesion.

On the substance, why is it that socially liberal, politically and socially cohesive countries - with some of the highest 'happiness' scores in Europe - can have national service/conscription (Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc...) but if it happened in the UK it would be the Greatest Afront to Humanity Evah/the last step into a totalitarian hellscape?

I'm genuinely interested in the political/societal difference that you think apply?

Don't know enough about the culture in these countries to comment but i guess in finland and estonia's case that "fear of russia" is a big factor in that.

Maybe if agent trump pulls the us out of nato we'll feel the same here*

*joke (i hope)