cheers mate - probably be around for christmas at least. i've not been paying that much attention this year tbh, I'm hoping the albums of the year thread might give me some tips.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Good for you for working out the posters background, I hadn't. I'd just now started to write another defence for my flippant remark among many others that frenzied speed reading night but there's no point really. There's blood in the water, the sharks are circling the SWP and they think the end is nigh. We'll hear a lot of stuff about the degenerated, desiccated sect that is the SWP from Jones, Seymour (although he has the sense to call off the stall chucking attack dogs in his piece) and their smaller epigones on here. Cool, that's fair enough, the temperature on this thread has tended to follow developments in the faction fight quite closely and right now is the height of the "I've had enough, be done with you foul hacks" wave. But lets be honest, it is largely an Internet wave at this point and I suspect you all already know the SWP won't be broken by it, not even in the wished for sense of "gradually dwindling into insignificance" or whatever the formula is. That's bollox and at least half the fury directed at the party and anyone associated with it online is because the furious ones know that's bollox or at the very least aren't as sure of it as they want to sound. Cue more spittle inflected rants from the less articulate section of the thread than yourself benedict...
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articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Socialist Worker will still be around, like you occasionally see someone selling Newsline
Karmickameleon
Too long in exile
It's largely an Internet wave ... those words struck me as it was something an old SWP friend of mine said 12 months ago when I asked him what the hell was going on in the party re the Delta scandal. Haven't spoken to him since, but I bet he's changed his mind since then!
But I agree that the SWP won't be broken by the Internet "wave", it will be destroyed by its own leadership and those who support them.
ska invita
back on the other side
re The Quote, has the person who said it been named?
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
A facebook contacted linked to this piece from a French-based activist defending the SWP:
http://johnmullenagen.blogspot.de/2...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
SEYMOUR! replied thusly:
To which my contact (whom I've met about twice IRL) responded:
Is she even worth defriending?
http://johnmullenagen.blogspot.de/2...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
SEYMOUR! replied thusly:
To which my contact (whom I've met about twice IRL) responded:
Is she even worth defriending?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
or in the labour party
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's about time you were
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The astonishing thing is still that if the SWP tops and their supporters had behaved decently, properly, like socialists, from day one they could and would have avoided all this - every last bit of it. Sure they'd have the same problems as before - lack of internal democracy and democratic culture, great-men politics, middle/upper and academic class domination, appalling opportunism etc - but they were internal problems, their problems. Instead, by reacting like paranoid stalinist control freaks, by jim jonesing it (i was going to say corporal jonesing it but the collective nature of this idiocy takes it far beyond that) they have manged to turn it and the stuff listed above into a problem for everyone else to deal with, they made those problems social and in that act provoked reactions and answers to those problems that have seriously damaged what they thought they were protecting. What does this say about the political acumen of this vanguard - that it does this on what, when placed alongside their grand aims, could be said to be a relatively minor matter? It throws into doubt every single piece of analysis they now offer, whether historic or contemporary, it makes people ask, hang on, just who on earth are these chancers and how have they got where they are? Why should i/we listen to them? And all because their puffed up local authority meant they could no longer respond decently, no longer respond without seeing difference of opinion or disagreement as a challenge to their authority.
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Karmickameleon
Too long in exile
The only info I have is that it was said by a delegate. One presumes that it wasn't said by a CC/DC member as this would have led to an even bigger scandal. David Renton, who confirmed that the infamous quote had been in fact said, will be posting on his blog this evening. It will be interesting to see if he mentions the incident.
Ooh catty!
That meme gets more inconsequential by the month, soon it will be about washing up liquid or something.
Recently departed.
A few points in no sequential or political order:
- The facebook therapy resignation thing is the tip of the iceberg. Charlie made a very bad call when he ended conference with a TINA argument (there is no alternative). Hardly a positive argument for the time and money people give the party.
- There is word of a statement to follow, not sure whether I'll sign it as it may convey an intention to do something else. I want a bit of a rest.
- The prof is King. He negotiates between the two mainstream factions. This role is very difficult, and requires 'creativity'. He lies through his teeth, and cant keep his temper (amusing, but sad).
- It came out that the dispute committee has been split all year. The honorable side called the other side outright liars. It came out that the CC had to intervene to get the second complaint heard after the honorable side complained. The chair of national committee (certainly not a faction member) said there had been a clear gap between the parties politics on oppression and the way it had acted.
- These revelations were ignored, disbelieved or thought to be too damaging to act on in the short term. Some real crazy shit was applauded. A person speaking 'from the standpoint of the proletariat' (you know who) said openly that the complainant couldn't be trusted for political reasons. The 'women and children lie' line was said, but in rambling incoherent way - applause was polite based on clapping a nervous idiot, but her ideas were not challenged.
- There are many honorable people not in the faction, in particular on the DC, that fought like hell to get a proper hearing for the second complainants main accusation. In the main, the 'critical friend' faction were quiet, voting with the cc, distraught at what was being said, unorganized and deflated.
They disappoint me the most. They have not organised, merely acted to put pressure on Alex and Charlie in private. They even said things that have been *directly the opposite* to what they have said in private. Various middle grounders have said iDoom need to be off CC, the direction of the party is terrible etc etc. Good luck to them, but I have no confidence in their ability to see any of this through.
- The report of this complaint made it very clear that Martin had significant evidence he would have to account for, of a stronger kind that he has previously faced, if he sought to rejoin. He is understood to be finished by all but a very, very small minority.
- The secondary hearing, about internet hacking, was a farce. Those hearing it did not know what a google group was, how email worked etc. The nature of the complaint was deliberately conflated - the accusation was not that charlie or the cc had hacked her email, but that someone had. In the summing up, it was said that 'there may have been hacking, but we are confident that the cc or charlie did not hack'. FFS.
-The CC's apology is ambiguous, and was interpreted in very contradictory ways by members outside the faction. I was told that if you don't fight, you'll never win. Good luck to these people.
- The student session shows that those tasked with rebuilding the SWP are doing so on a narrow, economistic, sect-like basis. The students they have recruited sound like millies- the paper, the party, the meeting. The students from the faction gave a detailed analysis of the cops of campus, the living wage campaign, and prospects for the student movement in the next year.
Its sad all round, mostly because at any point in the last 12months this could have been dealt with, but each time the Prof upped the stakes rather than backing down.
Someone from Bristol attacked 'those on both sides who have threatened to leave if they don't get there way'. This is the first time I have heard of people threatening to leave on the other side - perhaps this explains some of the disastrous fudges that have taken place.
A few points in no sequential or political order:
- The facebook therapy resignation thing is the tip of the iceberg. Charlie made a very bad call when he ended conference with a TINA argument (there is no alternative). Hardly a positive argument for the time and money people give the party.
- There is word of a statement to follow, not sure whether I'll sign it as it may convey an intention to do something else. I want a bit of a rest.
- The prof is King. He negotiates between the two mainstream factions. This role is very difficult, and requires 'creativity'. He lies through his teeth, and cant keep his temper (amusing, but sad).
- It came out that the dispute committee has been split all year. The honorable side called the other side outright liars. It came out that the CC had to intervene to get the second complaint heard after the honorable side complained. The chair of national committee (certainly not a faction member) said there had been a clear gap between the parties politics on oppression and the way it had acted.
- These revelations were ignored, disbelieved or thought to be too damaging to act on in the short term. Some real crazy shit was applauded. A person speaking 'from the standpoint of the proletariat' (you know who) said openly that the complainant couldn't be trusted for political reasons. The 'women and children lie' line was said, but in rambling incoherent way - applause was polite based on clapping a nervous idiot, but her ideas were not challenged.
- There are many honorable people not in the faction, in particular on the DC, that fought like hell to get a proper hearing for the second complainants main accusation. In the main, the 'critical friend' faction were quiet, voting with the cc, distraught at what was being said, unorganized and deflated.
They disappoint me the most. They have not organised, merely acted to put pressure on Alex and Charlie in private. They even said things that have been *directly the opposite* to what they have said in private. Various middle grounders have said iDoom need to be off CC, the direction of the party is terrible etc etc. Good luck to them, but I have no confidence in their ability to see any of this through.
- The report of this complaint made it very clear that Martin had significant evidence he would have to account for, of a stronger kind that he has previously faced, if he sought to rejoin. He is understood to be finished by all but a very, very small minority.
- The secondary hearing, about internet hacking, was a farce. Those hearing it did not know what a google group was, how email worked etc. The nature of the complaint was deliberately conflated - the accusation was not that charlie or the cc had hacked her email, but that someone had. In the summing up, it was said that 'there may have been hacking, but we are confident that the cc or charlie did not hack'. FFS.
-The CC's apology is ambiguous, and was interpreted in very contradictory ways by members outside the faction. I was told that if you don't fight, you'll never win. Good luck to these people.
- The student session shows that those tasked with rebuilding the SWP are doing so on a narrow, economistic, sect-like basis. The students they have recruited sound like millies- the paper, the party, the meeting. The students from the faction gave a detailed analysis of the cops of campus, the living wage campaign, and prospects for the student movement in the next year.
Its sad all round, mostly because at any point in the last 12months this could have been dealt with, but each time the Prof upped the stakes rather than backing down.
Someone from Bristol attacked 'those on both sides who have threatened to leave if they don't get there way'. This is the first time I have heard of people threatening to leave on the other side - perhaps this explains some of the disastrous fudges that have taken place.
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FridgeMagnet
Administrator
You appear to be creating a new account each time you post on this thread. Please do not do this.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
LOL! I see some things don't change.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
i just defriended a loyalist. pleased to announce he was staying in. i had to comment, jesus, they went nuts. if they had gotten any more shrill it would have sounded like a box of whistles landing on a bunch of budgerigars.
shame really, as he used to be good. left our branch before it turned to shit though. joined during the miners strike. probably thrir youngest member now.
shame really, as he used to be good. left our branch before it turned to shit though. joined during the miners strike. probably thrir youngest member now.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
What exactly do 'the millies' sound like? Only I happen to have been in both organisations and encountered far more of the kind of hackery you describe here in the SWP than in 'the millies' (though admittedly both do it far more than is really healthy).
You'd have thought recent events would have led young former swaps to think twice before engaging in that kind of sectarian one upmanship.
ska invita
back on the other side
david renton writes: http://livesrunning.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/to-my-comrades-of-any-party-or-none/
...
on a side note, he says "Over the past 20 years the self-taught workers have almost all left, while the party-liners have multiplied."
i was speaking to someone the other day who said that the SWP "in the seventies" (he may have got his dates wrong, maybe early 80s) was a lot more "libertarian" and "horizontal" , but those people left pretty much as a bloc. can anyone confirm that? has the party changed a lot over time?
...
on a side note, he says "Over the past 20 years the self-taught workers have almost all left, while the party-liners have multiplied."
i was speaking to someone the other day who said that the SWP "in the seventies" (he may have got his dates wrong, maybe early 80s) was a lot more "libertarian" and "horizontal" , but those people left pretty much as a bloc. can anyone confirm that? has the party changed a lot over time?
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
To be fair it is not clear if they mean the SP of now, or Militant of days gone by.
Anyway what they seem to be saying is that 'millies' focus on building their party rather than in engaging with the wider movements. I guess the SP would probably say they engage in different movements.
I have to say that personally while I like you spinney, in fact I think you are possibly one of my favorite posters on here, my experiences with SP members in 'the real world' have been far from positive. I have encountered sectarian hackery at a level the SWP could never much.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is juche shit.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Scribbling S
Active Member
I'm assuming "The students they have recruited sound like millies- the paper, the party, the meeting" does indeed mean the Militant Tendency approach, vintage 80s style - which was to recruit among students to bring them into the party-of-the-workers without really involving them in student protests & struggles (presumably a new SWP scheme to make sure their new students do not go off and develop ideas of their own in the process). As it happens the Socialist Party seem to be now (have been for a while ? ) getting quite into student protest at the universities, so there is a kind of direct swap of roles here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Dave Rentons piece is very good. I've always liked him and found him personally 'good' - how people like that ended up 20 years in the swp (and it wasn't any different when he joined - this isn't a story of degeneration) is something pretty important.
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