Students occupy University of Sheffield Auditorium

[ViolentPanda]

You're here, aren't you? Stop whining and make your case.

What case? The "common-sense" narrative he's spouting is fine if you're a fan of the "simple truths" pushed out by the right-leaning media, but none of it actually adds up to a case - more like a handbag!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Has it occurred to you that the problem with QE as it currently stands is that giving money to banks for them to sit on doesn't actually do anything to stimulate demand?

Yup. Anyone who's read a simplified precis of Keynes (which used to be anyone who studied history at O level) is aware that you have to stimulate demand across economic sectors, not just rely on lenders to act as distribution nodes for the means to stimulate demand.

 

[ViolentPanda]

..simply nothing.

Is a pretty good summary of what you've done to substantiate your various claims.

 

[Barry43210]

Barry43210.

Not "entirely serious", rather than "not serious". A subtle, but important distinction.

I'm not advocating it as a policy measure. I'm not hugely interested in doing so.

...but, regardless, it has opened up some questions which are of more interest.

Again, bear in mind that a 95% tax rate would be on income above whatever income threshold we decide here marks "rich/wealthy".

Let's say

Barry43210.

Not "entirely serious", rather than "not serious". A subtle, but important distinction.

I'm not advocating it as a policy measure. I'm not hugely interested in doing so.

...but, regardless, it has opened up some questions which are of more interest.

Again, bear in mind that a 95% tax rate would be on income above whatever income threshold we decide here marks "rich/wealthy".

Let's say £100k p/a (though I'm happy to change that, personally I'd go lower, but that's not hugely important right now).

So all income above 100k is taxed at 95%/

So someone whose income is £130k p/a will be taxed at 95% for the £30k above the £100k. The previous £100k would be at some other lower tax rate(s).

Clear?

So there is still room for a huge range of possible, differentiated incomes for different jobs before we hit the 95% tax rate.

Clear?

This doesn't mean everybody would earn the same no matter what job they did (though I find that idea tempting, I haven't argued for that - yet.)

With your clarification I don't think we are too far off the same view. But I think it depends how 'rich' is defined.

And to me, at the 100k level you propose what you are effectively saying is that we, the masses, have absolutely no way of catching up with those who do not need to earn as they already have excessive wealth. That can't be right.

Now...couple what you suggest with my call for 100% inheritance tax and you could be on to something.

I still think there would be a load of jobs nobody would want to/bother to do though.

 

[kabbes]

With your clarification I don't think we are too far off the same view. But I think it depends how 'rich' is defined.

And to me, at the 100k level you propose what you are effectively saying is that we, the masses, have absolutely no way of catching up with those who do not need to earn as they already have excessive wealth. That can't be right.

Now...couple what you suggest with my call for 100% inheritance tax and you could be on to something.

I still think there would be a load of jobs nobody would want to/bother to do though.

"With your clarification"?

What the fuck are you talking about? I first tried to point out to you that you were totally misunderstanding the whole basis of the tax system at 4:04pm yesterday:

You do understand how marginal tax rates work, right?

Louis had another go at explaining it to you at 9:03am today:

Also you do realise that the putative 95% tax rate was a marginal one, to be levied on earnings over a certain rate, so that rich people wouldn't be taking home 5p in the pound after tax. They would get their tax free allowance (£10,000 reduced as their earnings went over £100,000)), plus 90% of earnings up to £5,000, 80% of earnings between £5001 and £31,785, 60% of earnings between £31,786 and £150,000, 55% of earnings between £150,001 and whatever the new upper limit is....and only on that proportion of their income above that upper limit (say £250,000) would they pay the 95% rate.

You ignored both those. And yet only now do you say "with your clarification"?

You really are one hell of a joker.

 

[Pickman's model]

I still think there would be a load of jobs nobody would want to/bother to do though.

yours, for a start. it's in the no one's bothering to do it category anyway.

 

[brogdale]

With your clarification I don't think we are too far off the same view. But I think it depends how 'rich' is defined.

And to me, at the 100k level you propose what you are effectively saying is that we, the masses, have absolutely no way of catching up with those who do not need to earn as they already have excessive wealth. That can't be right.

Now...couple what you suggest with my call for 100% inheritance tax and you could be on to something.

I still think there would be a load of jobs nobody would want to/bother to do though.

Haven't you fucked off yet?

 

[LeslieB]

Even in a shithole house-share in some armpit satellite town to your uni, will generally cost you more than £300 a month,even staying in halls will. Your £800 would go nowhere, regarding resettlement costs, either. Most landlords require deposits equivalent to 2 months' rent, plus the first month's rent, so even with that mythical £300pm, you'd need £900 to cover that ALONE.

It is possible to find rooms for around 300 in Derby and Nottingham. I admit i was being tight with allowing only 200 for the deposit though.

 

[brogdale]

It is possible to find rooms for around 300 in Derby and Nottingham. I admit i was being tight with allowing only 200 for the deposit though.

Why are you attempting to argue the toss over such trivialities from such a position of ignorance?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why are you attempting to argue the toss over such trivialities from such a position of ignorance?

because he's a tosser

 

[ViolentPanda]

With your clarification I don't think we are too far off the same view. But I think it depends how 'rich' is defined.

And to me, at the 100k level you propose what you are effectively saying is that we, the masses, have absolutely no way of catching up with those who do not need to earn as they already have excessive wealth. That can't be right.

Now...couple what you suggest with my call for 100% inheritance tax and you could be on to something.

I still think there would be a load of jobs nobody would want to/bother to do though.

Or we could set an annual land tax, plus institute a Tobin-style fraction-of-a-percent tax on forex dealing and on financial instruments - taxes that don't take very much at all per transaction, but add up because of volume.

 

[planetgeli]

OK, I'll take a pot shot at that.

According to Home - HESA - Higher Education Statistics Agency there are around 1.5 million full time undergrads in the UK of which (scroll down the table) around 1.3 million are home students. So tution fees are currently £9000 a year, so it's a simple multiplication sum to get a figure of 11.7 billion pounds a year . Can some kind soul check I've got the decimal point in the right place?

If you were also to provide maintainance grant funding, that would nearly double that figure. The current maintance loan is £8,200 a year which would cost another 10.6 billion a year if it were converted into a non repayable grant.

So I would estimate a cost somewhere north of 20 billion a year for a full tuition fee and maintance loan package

That is no small beer by any standards!

Well here is nearly £2 Billion off your cost without even trying.

Tuition fees give England universities surplus worth £1.8bn

Tuition fees give England universities surplus worth £1.8bn

 

[brogdale]

Well here is nearly £2 Billion off your cost without even trying.

Tuition fees give England universities surplus worth £1.8bn

 

[brogdale]

In the last academic year, higher education providers in England spent a combined £25.9bn and took in a total of £27.7bn for a £1.8bn surplus for 2014-15 – well above the £1.1bn recorded each year in 2013-14 and 2012-13.

but...

“UK universities do not make a profit. Any income they receive is spent on day-to-day activities, or reinvested for the future,” said a spokesperson for Universities UK, which represents the sector.

 

[LeslieB]

Why are you attempting to argue the toss over such trivialities from such a position of ignorance?

Are you seriously saying I don't know how much rent is in my own town? When I rent in a house share myself? I pay considerably less than £300 a month.

 

[brogdale]

Are you seriously saying I don't know how much rent is in my own town? When I rent in a house share myself? I pay considerably less than £300 a month.

I don't know where you live, but that's pretty much irrelevent. It is ignorant to generalise from the specific, especially where many students are paying much higher monthly rents for in-house and commercial accommodation.

 

[chilango]

At my local University, Halls of Residence costs range from £101 to £206.

Per week.

A room in a student house share ranges from £87 to £162.

Per week.

 

[chilango]

A two bed terrace in the University area would rent out for around £1000 a month by way of comparison.

 

[LeslieB]

I don't know where you live, but that's pretty much irrelevent. It is ignorant to generalise from the specific, especially where many students are paying much higher monthly rents for in-house and commercial accommodation.

It took me less than 2 minutes to find an example of a student friendly let near me for £290 a month and a £150 deposit.

Large double bedroom. £290 p/m all bills included

Here have one in Sheffield as well,

Double bedroom to rent

And one in Manchester, just for good measure.
Large double rooms friendly house - Rusholme


I don't doubt it is possible to pay more, much much more, than 300 a month, but it would be a good basic starting point

 

[brogdale]

I don't doubt it is possible to pay more, much much more, than 300 a month, but it would be a good basic starting point

You might want to re-consider that expression; that's pretty fucking offensive tbh.

 

[stethoscope]

@Barry43210 when you can prise yourself away from the Norwood thread...

 

[LeslieB]

You might want to re-consider that expression; that's pretty fucking offensive tbh.

Jeez, how is that offensive?

 

[brogdale]

Jeez, how is that offensive?

Because tens of thousands of students are racking up huge debts partly because greedy, exploitative institutions and individuals are charging rents massively higher than you suggested. I take it you're unaware that students in GL/RoSE might be facing minimum rents of £150 pppw?
That's why your wild generalisations from a restricted specific are as offensive as they are ignorant.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jeez, how is that offensive?

i find your religious reference offensive

 

[LeslieB]

I'm perfectly well aware that rents in London are much higher, thanks Brogdale. How does that make my reference to rents in other cities "pretty fucking offensive".

Is anyone else offended?

 

[brogdale]

I'm perfectly well aware that rents in London are much higher, thanks Brogdale.

Then why spout such ill-informed shite as this..?

A first months rent could be £300 or more, plus at least £200 for a deposit. All needing paying up front *before* the term starts. A one-off grant of say £800 paid on hitting the target grades and before starting uni would make a real difference

 

[LeslieB]

For christ sake there is life beyond London! And outside the capital it *is* possible to get uni accomodation for the sort of prices I suggested, and I posted links to prove it.

Again, how the hell is that "pretty fucking offensive"?

 

[Pickman's model]

For christ sake there is life beyond London. And outside the capital it *is* possible to get uni accomodation for the sort of prices I suggested, and I posted links to prove it.

Again, how the hell is that "pretty fucking offensive"

please stop referring to fictional"messiahs": it's very offensive.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I for one am offended by easily-offended people.

 

[chilango]

For christ sake there is life beyond London! And outside the capital it *is* possible to get uni accomodation for the sort of prices I suggested, and I posted links to prove it.

Again, how the hell is that "pretty fucking offensive"?

...and I posted accurate figures for a University outside the capital showing that your £300 wouldn't get near a month's rent.