[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[andysays]

Tommy doesn’t appear to hate trans people.

Ooh, let's all listen to what 'Tommy is saying

You really can't help yourself, can you

 

[Pickman's model]

Tommy doesn’t appear to hate trans people.

yeh, let's use tr as arbiter of this debate

 

[frogwoman]

They don’t represent everyone with misgivings about the GRA whichever way you paint it.

The people organising these meetings are the ones organising under the cover of misgivings about the gra.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The people organising these meetings are the ones organising under the cover of misgivings about the gra.

Yes but I don’t know what you propose from that. That everyone else shouldn’t have misgivings because dodgy types are using it as a cover?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Ooh, let's all listen to what 'Tommy is saying

You really can't help yourself, can you

What’s wrong with knowing what your opponents are saying? Surely it’s imperative for forming a counter strategy?

 

[Pickman's model]

What’s wrong with knowing what your opponents are saying? Surely it’s imperative for forming a counter strategy?

no, it's imperative for forming a strategy.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

no, it's imperative for forming a strategy.

Either or. Andy thinks that it’s evidence that I’m a fan of his or something.

 

[Pickman's model]

Either or. Andy thinks that it’s evidence that I’m a fan of his or something.

sure you're a fan of his

 

[Magnus McGinty]

sure you're a fan of his

I can’t stand his politics, or him particularly. I don’t see him as being off bounds for discussion though. And it was relevant to what was being said.

 

[LDC]

Yes but I don’t know what you propose from that. That everyone else shouldn’t have misgivings because dodgy types are using it as a cover?

For me one of the things that's changed my position on this was looking who people 'with misgivings' were asking to speak at their talks, who they were re-tweeting, sharing FB posts from, and were generally happy to share political company with.

I think for sure there's a position that's comradely and yet still critical of some aspects of the GRA and aspects of bits of the trans struggle (for want of a better term), and it would be possible to have discussions about this from a radical left perspective, but actually much of what seems to have happened is that reactionary elements within feminism (and wider) have dominated the debate in public, and other people who should know better have gone along with that.

I do think there's an element of however 'right' you think you are on a position if you find yourself generally attacked by much/most of the people who were previously your comrades, and when you look around those defending and promoting what you say are basically against you on pretty much every other issue, then you need to have a long hard think about what it is you're saying and whether it really is the 'right' position.

 

[Sea Star]

For me one of the things that's changed my position on this was looking who people 'with misgivings' were asking to speak at their talks, who they were re-tweeting, sharing FB posts from, and were generally happy to share political company with.

I think for sure there's a position that's comradely and yet still critical of some aspects of the GRA and aspects of bits of the trans struggle (for want of a better term), and it would be possible to have discussions about this from a radical left perspective, but actually much of what seems to have happened is that reactionary elements within feminism (and wider) have dominated the debate in public, and other people who should know better have gone along with that.

I do think there's an element of however 'right' you think you are on a position if you find yourself generally attacked by much/most of the people who were previously your comrades, and when you look around those defending and promoting what you say are basically against you on pretty much every other issue, then you need to have a long hard think about what it is you're saying and whether it really is the 'right' position.

A friend, colleague and TU comrade of mine - from a discussion among women in the RMT - came up with this as a starting point.
Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights

 

[Magnus McGinty]

For me one of the things that's changed my position on this was looking who people 'with misgivings' were asking to speak at their talks, who they were re-tweeting, sharing FB posts from, and were generally happy to share political company with.

I think for sure there's a position that's comradely and yet still critical of some aspects of the GRA and aspects of bits of the trans struggle (for want of a better term), and it would be possible to have discussions about this from a radical left perspective, but actually much of what seems to have happened is that reactionary elements within feminism (and wider) have dominated the debate in public, and other people who should know better have gone along with that.

I do think there's an element of however 'right' you think you are on a position if you find yourself generally attacked by much/most of the people who were previously your comrades, and when you look around those defending and promoting what you say are basically against you on pretty much every other issue, then you need to have a long hard think about what it is you're saying and whether it really is the 'right' position.

I’m more thinking of people I know who haven’t gone to any talks and are almost certainly trans inclusive but now feel they’re being put on the spot to accept this stuff. Imo choosing to point out that they’re basically allying with the far right probably won’t wash and would almost certainly be counter productive if trying to win them round.

 

[frogwoman]

Yes but I don’t know what you propose from that. That everyone else shouldn’t have misgivings because dodgy types are using it as a cover?

I don't know what to say?

I don't know how much evidence you need. This isn't the 'fringe' of the movement. It's not like there are a tiny minority who are hijacking a legitimate movement.

When you have formerly sensible people posting stuff about 'bankers', 'the 1%' and a 'trans lobby' that are promoting gender identity stuff and fash jumping in to agree with them? When you have people like Sheila Jeffreys speaking in Parliament at an event organised by one of these free that trans women are parasites occupying women's bodies? When you have radfems posting Jordan Peterson shit and writing by religious fundamentalists because he doesnt like trans people and nor do they?

When you have threads like this extremely ugly and threatening thread on mumsnet talking about what it will take to 'peak trans the world' and hoping support from the far right and religious groups?

https://wwwdotmumsnetdotcom/Talk/wo...lly-take-the-peak-trans-the-world?pg=1&order=

 

[Wilf]

I think this issue about making common cause with dodgy or outright offensive groups/commentators goes back to the type of politics the whole debate is set in. Regardless of the 'side' you are on, I suspect you are less likely to share platforms (metaphorical and real) with right wing bigots if you yourself have a framework that makes connections in quite different ways - solidarity and class struggle.

I'm not suggesting class politics dissolves very real differences, maybe even intractable problems, but it does allow you to think about the wider social field, links between different exploitations and oppressions and the rest.

 

[frogwoman]

I’m more thinking of people I know who haven’t gone to any talks and are almost certainly trans inclusive but now feel they’re being put on the spot to accept this stuff. Imo choosing to point out that they’re basically allying with the far right probably won’t wash and would almost certainly be counter productive if trying to win them round.

Yeah I used to share some of those views to be honest. I changed my mind, i agree argument won't on its own. im fairly sure if they just have misgivings they won't have a problem with it being pointed out where the misinformation is coming from.

Isnt it counter productive to expect trans people to be confronted with this shit on a daily basis and not have these ideas challenged for fear of being 'counter productive' in addition to the attacks they face in right wing media etc?

 

[Sea Star]

but when trans people refuse to share platforms with anyone we are accused on "no platforming".

 

[frogwoman]

I’m more thinking of people I know who haven’t gone to any talks and are almost certainly trans inclusive but now feel they’re being put on the spot to accept this stuff. Imo choosing to point out that they’re basically allying with the far right probably won’t wash and would almost certainly be counter productive if trying to win them round.

This is the exact same shit as the antisemitism scandal. That we shouldn't challenge their shit because it will alienate people, all this interminable stuff that people don't see a problem and a few upset people less important than getting the tories out of power. Why should trans people be expected to have bigotry against them go unchallenged because of the fear of some feminists having their opinion challenged in some difficult conversations?

 

[frogwoman]

but when trans people refuse to share platforms with anyone we are accused on "no platforming".

Yeah and the government have just announced plans to stop students no platforming speakers in a university. But the freedom of speech threat is totally coming from trans people.

 

[bimble]

I think this (pointing at people and saying you must be wrong cos this awful person is 'on your side') is a bit of a dead end tbh, whatever the subject. I mean Theresa May said she wants the gra reformed (demedicalised) but obviously that doesn't mean people who agree with her on that one thing agree with anything else she's ever said does it. Its a bit like the pointlessness of the interminable brexit arguments, people saying ye but if you voted leave you must be on team Boris johnson.

This what Sea Star posted a link to gives me hope.

A friend, colleague and TU comrade of mine - from a discussion among women in the RMT - came up with this as a starting point.
Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights

 

[Pickman's model]

I think this (pointing at people and saying you must be wrong cos this awful person is 'on your side') is a bit of a dead end tbh, whatever the subject. I mean Theresa May said she wants the gra reformed (demedicalised) but obviously that doesn't mean people who agree with her on that one thing agree with anything else she's ever said does it. Its a bit like the pointlessness of the interminable brexit arguments, people saying ye but if you voted leave you must be on team Boris johnson.

This what Sea Star posted a link to gives me hope.

yeh. i think what people are talking less what you say than people actually quoting dodgy sources in support of their argument. do you understand the difference?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

This is the exact same shit as the antisemitism scandal. That we shouldn't challenge their shit because it will alienate people, all this interminable stuff that people don't see a problem and a few upset people less important than getting the tories out of power. Why should trans people be expected to have bigotry against them go unchallenged because of the fear of some feminists having their opinion challenged in some difficult conversations?

You’re making the assumption that they’ve been won over by ‘terfs’ as opposed to just forming their own thoughts on the issue.

 

[andysays]

Either or. Andy thinks that it’s evidence that I’m a fan of his or something.

It's just that you plaster his opinions around here at every opportunity, either as an example of how he/the right is/are so much more on top of whatever the issue is than "the left or, as here, without any comment.

Ironic that we've been talking about the 'just asking questions' cover and now you're using the 'know what your enemies are up to' cover.

 

[frogwoman]

You’re making the assumption that they’ve been won over by ‘terfs’ as opposed to just forming their own thoughts on the issue.

i haven't made any assumptions of the sort.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's just that you plaster his opinions around here at every opportunity, either as an example of how he/the right is/are so much more on top of whatever the issue is than "the left or, as here, without any comment.

Ironic that we've been talking about the 'just asking questions' cover and now you're using the 'know what your enemies are up to' cover.

I don’t ‘plaster his opinions here at every opportunity’, that’s complete conjecture. But even if I did, it isn’t evidence that I’m a fan of his.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

i haven't made any assumptions of the sort.

So what did this mean:

im fairly sure if they just have misgivings they won't have a problem with it being pointed out where the misinformation is coming from.

 

[frogwoman]

there's this too - venice allan et al have been instrumental in organising these talks and julia long regularly speaks at them.

 

[frogwoman]

So what did this mean:

It means that if you are wrong about something and that's all it is then a lot of people would be happy to be corrected and learn something. Nothing to do with who convinced you.

 

[bimble]

yeh. i think what people are talking less what you say than people actually quoting dodgy sources in support of their argument. do you understand the difference?

I do understand the difference yeah.
It was LynnDoyleCooper 's bit i was thinking of, this bit about how maybe if you find yourself isolated on this then you should change your point of view:

.. however 'right' you think you are on a position if you find yourself generally attacked by much/most of the people who were previously your comrades, and when you look around those defending and promoting what you say are basically against you on pretty much every other issue, then you need to have a long hard think about what it is you're saying and whether it really is the 'right' position.

That sort of thing is definitely enough to make people stop talking about a subject, in order not to ruin friendships etc, but not to change their view really in any meaningful way, imo.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It means that if you are wrong about something and that's all it is then a lot of people would be happy to be corrected and learn something. Nothing to do with who convinced you.

I’m not sure how people can be ‘wrong’ about misgivings. It’s something that needs to be addressed rather than dismissed.

 

[stethoscope]

A friend, colleague and TU comrade of mine - from a discussion among women in the RMT - came up with this as a starting point.
Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights

Thanks for posting this. I had the pleasure to get to meet/see Booth perform recently, and this sums up quite a few of the frustrations I've had with the whole situation, plus how to build some sort of reasoned dialogue and with some grounding in solidarity and class-politics too. Its this that gives me some hope in all this where I've really become fatigued and frustrated and reluctant to engage in any of it.