[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Fozzie Bear]

Oh come on, you never wanted to poke the bear?

Is this a thing now?

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh come on, you never wanted to poke the bear?

Unlike you I've never seen the attraction in bear baiting

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Not sure that's possible

Only if you don’t see it as a rhetorical question.

 

[frogwoman]

Here's a transcript, from here

can confirm this is true, i saw the thread when it was still going on. i have screenshots from the thread itself but not the original post. I'll see if anyone has a screenshot of the OP

 

[frogwoman]

.

 

[frogwoman]

i said this before but I think this has gone way beyond simple concerns over the GRA and irritation over IDpol now and i've become increasingly disgusted by it tbh

 

[frogwoman]

The 'trans lobby' stuff is very similar to antisemitism tbh not to mention old right wing paranoia about the 'gay agenda'. Yes some of these things may be problems and I can understand why people can be taken in by this narrative because I was myself for a long time with some of stuff, but I think it's being used by some very sinister people.

Edited: and I don't think this is unrelated to some of the other bullshit on the left recently.

 

[LDC]

My initial position was to be supportive/feel solidarity with women wanting to question and talk about some of the aspects of the GRA and issues around transwomen having unquestioned access to women's spaces and services on demand. And also to be critical of the parts of the trans scene that stated that any level of debate or questioning was transphobic and shouldn't be tolerated, while also of course being more broadly supportive of the struggle of trans people generally. (All this in the context of me being critical of identity politics on a wider scale.)

But I feel like my position has shifted slightly in the last few months. While I do think it's of course OK to be talking about this stuff, some of the people I would have considered comrades and thought had better politics are drawing alliances with some pretty nasty people, hosting or attending talks by them, and repeating some of their shit politics. Rather than 'talking about' the issues with women generally, they seem to be supporting people who at best already have quite bad politics and at worst are outright transphobes and are far from being 'on our side'. In addition, far from situating it in a wider context, some of them seem to be retreating more and more into 'single issue feminism', something they're supposed to be critical of the trans scene for.

(The behaviour at the Bookfair, and other places, was still horrendous of course.)

 

[frogwoman]

it's the 'I'm just being critical of Israel'/I'm just against terrorism''/I'm just against muggings in the inner cities' all over again. same people doing it in many cases too.

 

[frogwoman]

The link with David Davies, perhaps one of the most right wing Tory MPs, is well established after he gave Venice Allen meeting space for an anti-trans meeting in parliament.

Woman's Place organiser Jacky Holyoake has been tweeting fundie videos claiming the roots of transgenderism are in paedophilia. There other link to fundie groups, but I'll have to look.

Pacific Justice Institute iirc

 

[bimble]

The 'trans lobby' stuff is very similar to antisemitism tbh not to mention old right wing paranoia about the 'gay agenda'. Yes some of these things may be problems and I can understand why people can be taken in by this narrative because I was myself for a long time with some of stuff, but I think it's being used by some very sinister people.

Edited: and I don't think this is unrelated to some of the other bullshit on the left recently.

I'd like to understand your position a bit better. You're saying yes there 'may be problems' but you personally have decided that its better to not think about or mention those because by doing so you risk somehow aligning with some really dodgy people?
Then you draw a parellel with criticising israel, as if doing that is a mistake because you might find yourself standing next to an antisemite? I don't think this is coherent tbh. Unless you're just saying silence is preferable when things are complicated, best just to stand back from the whole mess etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd like to understand your position a bit better. You're saying yes there 'may be problems' but you personally have decided that its better to not think about or mention those because by doing so you risk somehow aligning with some really dodgy people?
Then you draw a parellel with criticising israel, as if doing that is a mistake because you might find yourself standing next to an antisemite? I don't think this is coherent tbh. Unless you're just saying silence is preferable when things are complicated, best just to stand back from the whole mess etc.

Perhaps you should reread and reconsider

 

[redsquirrel]

I'd like to understand your position a bit better. You're saying yes there 'may be problems' but you personally have decided that its better to not think about or mention those because by doing so you risk somehow aligning with some really dodgy people?

No she's not - or at least that post is saying nothing of sort.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd like to understand your position a bit better. You're saying yes there 'may be problems' but you personally have decided that its better to not think about or mention those because by doing so you risk somehow aligning with some really dodgy people?
Then you draw a parellel with criticising israel, as if doing that is a mistake because you might find yourself standing next to an antisemite? I don't think this is coherent tbh. Unless you're just saying silence is preferable when things are complicated, best just to stand back from the whole mess etc.

Criticising Israel is not antisemitic. BUT. It's not a mystery that stuff like the criticism of Israel gets *used* by antisemites, and the concept of 'just' criticising it gets used by them as an *excuse*. 'I am just criticising Israel' is an excuse antisemites use, as in they hide behind something that is semi legitimate, and when they are challenged they always just say they are doing that even if they never mentioned Israel to begin with.

It's like racists will say they are against 'muggings in the inner cities', 'rioters burning down their own neighbourhood' etc, well great, most people don't want to be mugged or have their own house burned down. But there is also a subtext to when many people discuss this sort of thing that allows someone to be seen as reasonable and not just as a racist, and they will turn around and say shit like 'what? No i am just against crime, nothing against any race!'

And in that situation yeah sorry, I do think it's a bad idea to say share a platform with antisemites (or whoever) to 'just' criticise something you both don't like, even if the content of the criticism isn't dodgy, but because by doing so you are legitimising their actions. You're giving cover to them even if what you said itself wasnt antisemitic, when and where you do it, and how you do it, can end up giving political support to them.

Likewise with this. I am not saying people shouldn't discuss these problems, in fact I think they need to. But it is no secret that this is being used by the far right (and not just the right, I don't think we can pretend it's just them any longer), ive seen people reposting stuff from anti abortion fundamentalists, the far right and Jordan Peterson because *surprise!!* they both hate trans people. There is a risk of giving political cover to transphobes and allowing them some sort of legitimacy.

 

[bimble]

fair enough. Of course there are awful people involved in anti-trans propaganda, just as there are raging antisemites involved in any protest / action against the actions of the IDF. So yes anyone who doesn't just stay silent does need to serioulsy take care who they are standing next to and whose voices they're amplifying, agree. Glad to see you say that at the same time there is a need for people to discuss the issues just to do so with care.

 

[crossthebreeze]

My initial position was to be supportive/feel solidarity with women wanting to question and talk about some of the aspects of the GRA and issues around transwomen having unquestioned access to women's spaces and services on demand. And also to be critical of the parts of the trans scene that stated that any level of debate or questioning was transphobic and shouldn't be tolerated, while also of course being more broadly supportive of the struggle of trans people generally. (All this in the context of me being critical of identity politics on a wider scale.)

But I feel like my position has shifted slightly in the last few months. While I do think it's of course OK to be talking about this stuff, some of the people I would have considered comrades and thought had better politics are drawing alliances with some pretty nasty people, hosting or attending talks by them, and repeating some of their shit politics. Rather than 'talking about' the issues with women generally, they seem to be supporting people who at best already have quite bad politics and at worst are outright transphobes and are far from being 'on our side'. In addition, far from situating it in a wider context, some of them seem to be retreating more and more into 'single issue feminism', something they're supposed to be critical of the trans scene for.

(The behaviour at the Bookfair, and other places, was still horrendous of course.)

I don't want to excuse shit behaviour and shit politics, and I agree with much of what frogwoman just wrote, but its pretty textbook attitude (and group) polarisation isn't it. Maybe because there hasn't been space to talk about this stuff from in a more considered way.

 

[andysays]

It's an interesting parallel.

Undoubtedly there are people using the "just asking questions" formula when what they're doing is expressing transphobia.

But there are also, IMO, people using the "any questioning is transphobia" tactic to try and shut down debate.

The debate has become so polarised that it's increasingly difficult to find a reasonable way of discussing it.

 

[bimble]

It's an interesting parallel.

Undoubtedly there are people using the "just asking questions" formula when what they're doing is expressing transphobia.

But there are also, IMO, people using the "any questioning is transphobia" tactic to try and shut down debate.

The debate has become so polarised that it's increasingly difficult to find a reasonable way of discussing it.

Yeah this. i unfollowed a whole load of people on the twitter because i realised they are indiscriminately amplifying totally shitty stuff in a sort of my enemies enemy is my friend mindset, which is what happens also with the israel thing obvs. it is depressing and lonely-making.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think it is always indiscriminate. I think they very often know what they're doing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Likewise with this. I am not saying people shouldn't discuss these problems, in fact I think they need to. But it is no secret that this is being used by the far right (and not just the right, I don't think we can pretend it's just them any longer), ive seen people reposting stuff from anti abortion fundamentalists, the far right and Jordan Peterson because *surprise!!* they both hate trans people. There is a risk of giving political cover to transphobes and allowing them some sort of legitimacy.

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" nonsense

 

[bimble]

I don't think it is always indiscriminate. I think they very often know what they're doing.

Yep some of the stuff is just full of hate. I'm down to about 3 voices that i think are worth listening to . But then how to do the other bit, like you say there are conversations that are necessary to have. I don’t know.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But it is no secret that this is being used by the far right (and not just the right, I don't think we can pretend it's just them any longer), ive seen people reposting stuff from anti abortion fundamentalists, the far right and Jordan Peterson because *surprise!!* they both hate trans people.

Tommy doesn’t appear to hate trans people.

 

[frogwoman]

And? The far right isn't made up of one guy.

 

[Treacle Toes]

And? The far right isn't made up of one guy.

Innit!

That nonsense above is just like he doesn't hate all Muslim people...

 

[frogwoman]

Innit!

That nonsense above is just like he doesn't hate all Muslim people...

And the far right love the one 'good' Jew / Muslim / trans person etc that proves the rest are all bad.

 

[Treacle Toes]

And the far right love the one 'good' Jew / Muslim / trans person etc that proves the rest are all bad.

In Tommy's case it seems simply a matter of whether or not he finds them 'fit' being the man of such strongly coherent political values that he is. FFS.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And? The far right isn't made up of one guy.

If you’d taken the time to watch it you’d see that he’s using it as anti-feminist vehicle.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And the far right love the one 'good' Jew / Muslim / trans person etc that proves the rest are all bad.

A second ago you were saying people were siding with others with ‘dodgy views’. Make your mind up.

 

[frogwoman]

If you’d taken the time to watch it you’d see that he’s using it as anti-feminist vehicle.

There are people who do this too.

So what?

 

[Sea Star]

Its almost as if trans people have all sorts of different political viewpoints from far left to far right. Cis people are obviously so.much better.