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[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

Can be any. I'm sure we all know and can immediately think of at least one person who defines as a socialist or an anarchist or a libertarian marxist, or whatever, who actually has really crappy practise.
 
belboid said:
well, here's (probably) the crux. But now we are back to 'some people being dickheads.' 'No platforming' terf's is hardly 'Identity Politics' by the definition you ascribe to Magnus, it's just pretty crap politics. Attacking 'identity politics' will be of no value in undermimng that kind of behaviour. Which is surely the point.
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To be honest, I think you're both guilty of a bit of over-simplification (as I am prone to be I this issue).
 
smokedout said:
It's a bare faced lie.

One of many that came as they usually do from Venice Allen. I think this is an important point to get across. Amongst some more extreme anti-trans feminists, who have decided that trans rights means the destruction of all womanhood, there is now not even a pretence of objectivity or honestly. There is no longer a pretence to not be transphobic as the recent defence of these messages from Julia Long shows, there is open conspiraloonery being supported by some well known names on the left and there is open collaboration with Tories, religious fundamentalists and in some cases the alt-right. Anyone who supports trans rights in any way is now in their sights, including Class War, Sisters Uncut and whoever they think is Antifa this week. The bookfair was just collateral damage in pursuit of these demands which have now gone far beyond concerns about GRA reform. Mayday 4 Women seem to be moving to a position of forcing trans people out of the correct toilets for their aquired gender. This is a new current on the left, one unique to the UK I think, and there will be a lot more damage done befoe it burns out.
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Thank you for the correction about the police thing - I thought it sounded unlikely. I don't think that Julia Long ever pretended to not be transphobic though. I agree that that tweet from Mayday4Women is shit. I do have issue with your second link though:

What was the facebook post referring to (its a dead link for me)? Because if it was referring to the LGBT Awards 2018, that literally was sponsored by banks and MI5. Ruth Serwotka is in the comments of that tweet saying that Roz Kaveneny is smearing her, and Helen Steel says in the comments that her timeline has been inundated with fascists and trolls. Also what specific well-known leftwing feminists are collaborating with which specific tories, religious fundamentalists, and particularly specific alt rightists on this issue - because I think that's important to know if it is happening. And because otherwise its on the same level of shit as "class war called the cops".
 
crossthebreeze said:
Thank you for the correction about the police thing - I thought it sounded unlikely. I don't think that Julia Long ever pretended to not be transphobic though. I agree that that tweet from Mayday4Women is shit. I do have issue with your second link though:

What was the facebook post referring to (its a dead link for me)? Because if it was referring to the LGBT Awards 2018, that literally was sponsored by banks and MI5. Ruth Serwotka is in the comments of that tweet saying that Roz Kaveneny is smearing her, and Helen Steel says in the comments that her timeline has been inundated with fascists and trolls. Also what specific well-known leftwing feminists are collaborating with which specific tories, religious fundamentalists, and particularly specific alt rightists on this issue - because I think that's important to know if it is happening. And because otherwise its on the same level of shit as "class war called the cops".
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The facebook post has been deleted but this tweet sums it up:



MI5 have been cosying up to LGBT rights for a while after being named best employer by Stonewall in 2016. They have sponsored other awards at 'diversity' celenrations including the recent Diversity Awards. They also sponsored the lifetime achievement award at the LGBT awards, along with Natwest and Barclays, MTV, Virgin and GMB Union and several others. The award they sponsored happened to be won by a woman who set up a trans chariy. This led to speculation from Helen and others that this was evidence of some kind of plot by bankers and MI5 to promote trans rights and divide the movement. Ruth Serwotka did make that comment, I saw it, and it's true that the thread quickly filled up with fash supporting the speculation. There's was lots of it, here's Posy Parker who has spoken at several of the recent meetings:
 
The link with David Davies, perhaps one of the most right wing Tory MPs, is well established after he gave Venice Allen meeting space for an anti-trans meeting in parliament.

Woman's Place organiser Jacky Holyoake has been tweeting fundie videos claiming the roots of transgenderism are in paedophilia. There other link to fundie groups, but I'll have to look.
 
There is a long tradition of LGBT people criticising the involvement of state and corp agencies in things like Pride.

For example five comrades were arrested at Glasgow Pride last year for protesting about it being sponsored by the cops.

I imagine the same is true of MI5 sponsoring the awards.

The idea that all trans people think MI5 is fab and groovy now is absurd.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
There is a long tradition of LGBT people criticising the involvement of state and corp agencies in things like Pride.

For example five comrades were arrested at Glasgow Pride last year for protesting about it being sponsored by the cops.

I imagine the same is true of MI5 sponsoring the awards.

The idea that all trans people think MI5 is fab and groovy now is absurd.
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And really sums up how skewed the thinking on this has become. Note that MI5 are not being accused of trying to influence LGB politics based on their award sponsorships, because that would be daft. It's just the trans part, because any mention or involvement of trans people is now evidence of some vast conspiracy.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
There is a long tradition of LGBT people criticising the involvement of state and corp agencies in things like Pride.

For example five comrades were arrested at Glasgow Pride last year for protesting about it being sponsored by the cops.

I imagine the same is true of MI5 sponsoring the awards.

The idea that all trans people think MI5 is fab and groovy now is absurd.
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The trans youth I know are the most prominent in opposing the involvement of the cops in this years Sheffield Pride. From the terfs? I've not seen a word
 
smokedout said:
The facebook post has been deleted but this tweet sums it up:
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It's quite a stretch to go from questioning why 'genuine activists fighting oppression & injustice [would] think it appropriate to associate with MI5' to claiming that 'trans is a conspiracy by MI5 and bankers'.

I don't know whether Steel has claimed this or not, but given your record of misrepresentation I'll need a bit more than a claim from you to have seen a Facebook post which has now mysteriously disappeared.
 
Obviously I agree with the second sentence of Helen's tweet.

The last sentence could easily be read as drawing a line between the trans activism and MI5 in splitting movements.

Which I think we can all agree is something that happens but is generally unhelpful to mention without concrete evidence, as pointing the finger and saying "MI5" is also very divisive.
 
andysays said:
It's quite a stretch to go from questioning why 'genuine activists fighting oppression & injustice [would] think it appropriate to associate with MI5' to claiming that 'trans is a conspiracy by MI5 and bankers'.

I don't know whether Steel has claimed this or not, but given your record of misrepresentation I'll need a bit more than a claim from you to have seen a Facebook post which has now mysteriously disappeared.
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Here's a transcript, from here

Trans advocacy sponsored by MI5 and bankers!

Why has the relatively new ‘trans' ideology made so many gains so fast? Much faster gains than ever achieved by those fighting sexism and racism. Why is this new ideology splitting so many progressive movements with its demands for absolute adherence to that ideology and total intolerance of any debate or critical thinking?

Who benefits from its demands that women be expelled from political movements and parties for daring to think and speak for themselves about their life experiences of sexism? How has it taken over LGB organisations so successfully that the most blatant attacks on lesbians’ rights by numerous trans advocates go completely unchallenged?

Take a look at the LGBT awards last night and think about whether this agenda is driven by the most oppressed people on the planet or whether it’s actually driven and funded by those with power and money - by predominantly rich, very privileged white men, who despite their position still want more. Sponsored by MI5 ! Sponsored by Barclays, HSBT, Virgin, PWC. Award to Playboy! Awards to bankers.

What genuine activist fighting oppression would think it appropriate to have an award sponsored by MI5 for the category which "celebrates influencers, activists, campaigners or trailblazers in the LGBT+ community, who have made an impact either on a grass roots level……..". How were they in contact with MI5 in the first place?

In all your years of fighting injustice, have you ever seen anything like this movement for creating division but having massive success in getting laws and policies changed?

How has a movement which demands that we deny the reality of biological sex and the reality of physical differences between women and men, and which can’t even provide the new definitions of the words it has appropriated, made so many gains so fast in so many countries around the world?

This movement upholds rather than destroys sexism and sexist stereotypes. Ask yourself who/what does this movement really represent?

Inequality and injustice are rampant at present, sexism and racism are on the increase and there’s a massive and growing divide between rich and poor.

There’s a huge amount of work to be done to create a better world. I know there are many genuine and caring people active within trans politics now, but the rich & powerful are always happy to use others as cannon fodder to fight their wars.

Who benefits when we are not able to talk to each other about our ideas and visions of the society we want to see?

Can we start to rebuild our progressive movements by starting to talk and listen to each other about the world we want to see, without the shackles of sexism and sexist stereotypes or any other forms of oppression and where money doesn’t get to determine whose values and priorities dominate?
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smokedout said:
Here's a transcript, from here
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OK, that's far more convincing.

As I've said before, there are unreasonable zealots on both sides of this argument, and maybe this is a reminder that even once-sound people are still susceptible to nonsense and misguided ways of thinking.
 
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