[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Magnus McGinty]

speculate on what??

On whether socialism would be free from patriarchy. Perhaps you have a crystal ball, I don’t.

 

[Pickman's model]

My guess was that it pertains to internal discipline rather than a policy. But it is only a guess.

i took it to mean that they'd pronounced on the matter publicly

 

[Magnus McGinty]

i took it to mean that they'd pronounced on the matter publicly

Well ‘loudly’ would suggest that. Who knows?

 

[smokedout]

Are class war supposed to be anarchists? Idk but according to accounts they called the police to come and stop the 'other side' from going to the same pub as them after the Tara Wood court case. Its all past ridiculous.

It's a bare faced lie.

One of many that came as they usually do from Venice Allen. I think this is an important point to get across. Amongst some more extreme anti-trans feminists, who have decided that trans rights means the destruction of all womanhood, there is now not even a pretence of objectivity or honestly. There is no longer a pretence to not be transphobic as the recent defence of these messages from Julia Long shows, there is open conspiraloonery being supported by some well known names on the left and there is open collaboration with Tories, religious fundamentalists and in some cases the alt-right. Anyone who supports trans rights in any way is now in their sights, including Class War, Sisters Uncut and whoever they think is Antifa this week. The bookfair was just collateral damage in pursuit of these demands which have now gone far beyond concerns about GRA reform. Mayday 4 Women seem to be moving to a position of forcing trans people out of the correct toilets for their aquired gender. This is a new current on the left, one unique to the UK I think, and there will be a lot more damage done befoe it burns out.

 

[bimble]

bizarre tangent. I thought you'd be arguing that she was wrong / lying about them calling the police to stop people they disagree with going to a pub.
eta: that's more like it posted before smokedout's link.

 

[belboid]

On whether socialism would be free from patriarchy. Perhaps you have a crystal ball, I don’t.

Blimey. It will definitely continue to exist unless it is challenged, in the here and now. We don't need to speculate about that. Both socialism and feminism have benefitted from interacting with each other, and long may that continue.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a bare faced lie.

bimble

e2a i see you've seen it

 

[Pickman's model]

bizarre tangent. I thought you'd be arguing that she was wrong / lying about them calling the police to stop people they disagree with going to a pub.

i'm arguing that the article you relied on above is riddled with fuckwittery and lies.

and it is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are class war supposed to be anarchists? Idk but according to accounts they called the police to come and stop the 'other side' from going to the same pub as them after the Tara Wood court case. Its all past ridiculous.

perhaps you could do something like add 'it turns out this was all nonsense' to your post or make other reference to the fact the account you rely on is worthless.

 

[bimble]

perhaps you could do something like add 'it turns out this was all nonsense' to your post or make other reference to the fact the account you rely on is worthless.

"The screeching Terfs waved us off liked crazed loons.." tweet totally draws a line under the whole episode .

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Blimey. It will definitely continue to exist unless it is challenged, in the here and now. We don't need to speculate about that. Both socialism and feminism have benefitted from interacting with each other, and long may that continue.

I’m not sure you can know either way. You appear to think you do know either way so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[belboid]

I’m not sure you can know either way. You appear to think you do know either way so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

You are deeply contradictory. In one post you recognise patriarch is 'a thing' - and you seperate it from capital/class society. If so, then it will obviously continue to exist unless it is explicitly opposed. If it is wholly bound up by capital/class, then maybe it would just 'wither away' - but that is surely, grossly unlikely. Especially if people follow your lead, which seems basically to be 'I dont give a fuck'

 

[Pickman's model]

"The screeching Terfs waved us off liked crazed loons.." tweet totally draws a line under the whole episode .

the tweet that isn't a tweet - seems appropriate, really.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You are deeply contradictory. In one post you recognise patriarch is 'a thing' - and you seperate it from capital/class society. If so, then it will obviously continue to exist unless it is explicitly opposed. If it is wholly bound up by capital/class, then maybe it would just 'wither away' - but that is surely, grossly unlikely. Especially if people follow your lead, which seems basically to be 'I dont give a fuck'

Nice strawman. Surely it arguably wouldn’t be socialism if women were subordinate to men? Although we could end up in a society calling itself such that still has patriarchy was the point I was making. I have no crystal ball. But perhaps you’d like to point to where I’ve suggested feminism shouldn’t exist or “I don’t give a fuck” or retract that bit of bullshit?

 

[stethoscope]

"The screeching Terfs waved us off liked crazed loons.." tweet totally draws a line under the whole episode .

I thought you stood outside of this sort of thing?

 

[belboid]

Nice strawman. Surely it arguably wouldn’t be socialism if women were subordinate to men? Although we could end up in a society calling itself such that still has patriarchy was the point I was making. I have no crystal ball. But perhaps you’d like to point to where I’ve suggested feminism shouldn’t exist or “I don’t give a fuck” or retract that bit of bullshit?

You wrote that patriarchy could still exist 'under socialism', so go correct your own posts if you want. And your consistent attacks on any kind of identity based politics (which is what any kind of feminism is) mean you, practically at least, think we should do fuck all about anything that doesn't fit neatly and squarely into a box labelled 'class'

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You wrote that patriarchy could still exist 'under socialism', so go correct your own posts if you want. And your consistent attacks on any kind of identity based politics (which is what any kind of feminism is) mean you, practically at least, think we should do fuck all about anything that doesn't fit neatly and squarely into a box labelled 'class'

Ah. You think feminism is identity politics. I don’t. But you think I do. Hence the rather bizarre straw men you’re building.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

(I should add that it can be but isn’t always).

 

[Wilf]

I don't think a hypothetical discussion like this is particularly useful to be honest, Andy. I'm sure it could be interesting but my main priority is seeing if the Bookfair can happen again and I expect there to be all sorts of practical, political and personal issues that need to be addressed for that to work - and they really should be done face to face with people and not on a public forum like this.

Agreed. You could imagine a list of points/principles that some future organisers could post about behaviour at the bookfair, but it would be unlikely to stop the (various) shitstorms there have been over the last couple of years. As far as I can tell most of those causing the problems are not anarchists so don't give a shit about the health of the movement. But yeah, most of all it has to make sense for a group of people to take the job on again, particularly in this atmosphere. And it's really come to something when the main meeting in the UK anarcho calendar is no longer a viable proposition.

Worth saying again that the efforts of the folk who have organised it over the years are much appreciated.

 

[smokedout]

Ah. You think feminism is identity politics. I don’t. But you think I do. Hence the rather bizarre straw men you’re building.

But surely a feminism which is structured around attacking trans people is identity politics. Or is it only identity poltics to defend trans people?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But surely a feminism which is structured around attacking trans people is identity politics. Or is it only identity poltics to defend trans people?

I’m not sure I want to get back into this tbh. It was all done on the now locked thread.

 

[belboid]

Ah. You think feminism is identity politics. I don’t. But you think I do. Hence the rather bizarre straw men you’re building.

I think your version of ID politics is its own straw man (ironically enough). The bits you like, are feminism, the bits you don't, are ID politics. But that's incoherent nonsense.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think your version of ID politics is its own straw man (ironically enough). The bits you like, are feminism, the bits you don't, are ID politics. But that's incoherent nonsense.

No, things like redistributing inequality between the sexes is identity politics, because it lacks a class analysis.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So that straw man is entirely your own.

 

[belboid]

No, things like redistributing inequality between the sexes is identity politics, because it lacks a class analysis.

fortunately, I don't know anyone who argues that. So that straw man is entirely yours.

And having a class analysis means more than just repeating the words 'class analysis' over and over

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And having a class analysis means more than just repeating the words 'class analysis' over and over

Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. I presume we’re done with your wittering for now?

 

[Pickman's model]

Agreed. You could imagine a list of points/principles that some future organisers could post about behaviour at the bookfair, but it would be unlikely to stop the (various) shitstorms there have been over the last couple of years. As far as I can tell most of those causing the problems are not anarchists so don't give a shit about the health of the movement. But yeah, most of all it has to make sense for a group of people to take the job on again, particularly in this atmosphere. And it's really come to something when the main meeting in the UK anarcho calendar is no longer a viable proposition.

Worth saying again that the efforts of the folk who have organised it over the years are much appreciated.

yeh the people who've put themselves out arranging it have done a grand job, and it's a great pity that it's never been more recognised.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

yeh the people who've put themselves out arranging it have done a grand job, and it's a great pity that it's never been more recognised.

Classic case of you don't know what you have until it's gone.

 

[belboid]

Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. I presume we’re done with your wittering for now?

And yet, you do nothing but repeat the words 'class analysis'

The whole argument on the other thread was about whether the group of people who are 'trans women' are 'allowed' into the group of people called 'women' - it is precisely about group rights, not individual rights. So, according to your previous definition, it is 'femisnism' not 'identity politics'

 

[TopCat]

Are class war supposed to be anarchists? Idk but according to accounts they called the police to come and stop the 'other side' from going to the same pub as them after the Tara Wood court case. Its all past ridiculous.

That account is sub dick emery in its comedy. Flick is in CW and got her groups support.