[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[newbie]

The whole point of idpol is about division, not solidarity. If it didn’t exist the state would invent it.

Indeed, but I stumble trying to work out how a communist or anarchist politics not infected with idpol would deal with the contradictions thrown up by this apparently intractable divergence of opinion. Even allowing for the wise keeping the hotheads respectful there's still such a gulf in the respective positions it's hard to see how focus on solidarity (or anything else) can resolve the differences.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Indeed, but I stumble trying to work out how a communist or anarchist politics not infected with idpol would deal with the contradictions thrown up by this apparently intractable divergence of opinion. Even allowing for the wise keeping the hotheads respectful there's still such a gulf in the respective positions it's hard to see how focus on solidarity (or anything else) can resolve the differences.

Rights activism is about treatment of the individual under capitalism. Socialism is about the interests of the group (united by class). Could idpol even exist under socialism? It’s particular to Neo-Liberalism.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I wasn't suggesting banning, more putting it forward as a hypothetical option to try to get a discussion going.

So what sort of activity could the organisers state was not welcome, given that it will be close to impossible to get universal agreement that a contentious leaflet is transphobic or whatever? (and I really don't want to reopen the dead end of whether the particular leaflet which sparked the incident was transphobic, that's a separate question)

I don't think a hypothetical discussion like this is particularly useful to be honest, Andy. I'm sure it could be interesting but my main priority is seeing if the Bookfair can happen again and I expect there to be all sorts of practical, political and personal issues that need to be addressed for that to work - and they really should be done face to face with people and not on a public forum like this.

 

[Pickman's model]

Antifa is frequently used in the media as a synonym of anti-fascists and she clearly means they’d adopted the black bloc look, that many involved nowadays do as a matter of principle rather than a tactic.
It’s a pretty one-sided article but at least criticise it for the right reasons and not that it ought to write expecting its audience have an intricate understanding of historical UK anti-fascism.

so what you're saying is that we should allow jen izaakson, former editor of london student, who has identified as a socialist for more than five years, some leeway based on journalistic laziness. how much leeway should we allow her for the claim about carceral feminism?

 

[stethoscope]

It's a pity if they're a fucking 'Marxist' that whatever their opinions on the politics of all this shit, that they can't at least just be vaguely 'respectful' and not use phrases like 'trans-identified male' about a trans woman (even though I have little interest in defending this Wolf either). It's just more shit fucking politics that is divisive and doesn't ever find any way forward.

 

[newbie]

Rights activism is about treatment of the individual under capitalism. Socialism is about the interests of the group (united by class). Could idpol even exist under socialism? It’s particular to Neo-Liberalism.

sure, but this is potentially problematic whatever the class composition of society. The other day a woman said to me she didn't want penises in womens changing rooms. I don't see why that sentiment should exist only within a context of neoliberalism, capitalism or individual rights based society. It's a pretty fundamental concept with the capability to divide in any society.

 

[Shechemite]

But it comes back to class doesn't it? The pitting of trans rights vs women's rights is facilitated by the poverty that both wc trans people and women are subject to. Take hospitals/crisis houses for example. If the resources were put into these services, then it would be much easier to have facilities which reflect the rights of everyone.

I can't remember ever reading of Caitlyn Jenner ever having difficulty finding a loo, or being hassled in hospital by other patients because of being a transwoman in a female facility

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's a pity if they're a fucking 'Marxist' that whatever their opinions on the politics of all this shit, that they can't at least just be vaguely 'respectful' and not use phrases like 'trans-identified male' about a trans woman (even though I have little interest in defending this Wolf either). It's just more shit fucking politics that is divisive and doesn't ever find any way forward.

I agree with this. I don’t understand the desire to be disrespectful.

 

[andysays]

I don't think a hypothetical discussion like this is particularly useful to be honest, Andy. I'm sure it could be interesting but my main priority is seeing if the Bookfair can happen again and I expect there to be all sorts of practical, political and personal issues that need to be addressed for that to work - and they really should be done face to face with people and not on a public forum like this.

Fair enough

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a pity if they're a fucking 'Marxist' that whatever their opinions on the politics of all this shit, that they can't at least just be vaguely 'respectful' and not use phrases like 'trans-identified male' about a trans woman (even though I have little interest in defending this Wolf either). It's just more shit fucking politics that is divisive and doesn't ever find any way forward.

may claim to be a marxist but comes across as an effete and ineffectual liberal

 

[Magnus McGinty]

so what you're saying is that we should allow jen izaakson, former editor of london student, who has identified as a socialist for more than five years, some leeway based on journalistic laziness. how much leeway should we allow her for the claim about carceral feminism?

I’m just saying that ‘Antifa’ has moved into common parlance, as has the view that masking up is their ‘uniform’. Dumbing down politics to reach a wider audience should be understood by anyone who’s ever had in interest in Class War, for example. Wasn’t that the MO of the original magazine?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

sure, but this is potentially problematic whatever the class composition of society. The other day a woman said to me she didn't want penises in womens changing rooms. I don't see why that sentiment should exist only within a context of neoliberalism, capitalism or individual rights based society. It's a pretty fundamental concept with the capability to divide in any society.

It’s a consequence of patriarchy which hopefully wouldn’t exist under socialism. Of course, it might. But what’s happening at the moment is a consequence of the dominant ideologies we’re living under.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m just saying that ‘Antifa’ has moved into common parlance, as has the view that masking up is their ‘uniform’. Dumbing down politics to reach a wider audience should be understood by anyone who’s ever had in interest in Class War, for example. Wasn’t that the MO of the original magazine?

yeh. we've moved on from that, i'm asking you about the amount of leeway we should give her on what appears to be a claim without basis. why are you refusing to answer such a simple question?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

yeh. we've moved on from that, i'm asking you about the amount of leeway we should give her on what appears to be a claim without basis. why are you refusing to answer such a simple question?

The question about her claim about Class War? It’s fair that you critique that. I haven’t said otherwise.

 

[Pickman's model]

The question about her claim about Class War? It’s fair that you critique that. I haven’t said otherwise.

grand

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Bizarre that you were pressing me on it. Either she’s making it up or there’s something in the history of CW that she knows that’s making her say it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bizarre that you were pressing me on it. Either she’s making it up or there’s something in the history of CW that she knows that’s making her say it.

nothing bizarre about it at all. what i see as laziness on the one hand and invention on the other seems of a sort with the remainder of the piece. you suggest a different motive for the antifa bit but nothing about her peculiar claim about carceral feminism, a phrase i never heard until this morning.

but tell you what, search as i did for

"class war" "carceral feminism"

and tell me how many things actually by cw loudly ranting about it you find.

 

[belboid]

Rights activism is about treatment of the individual under capitalism. Socialism is about the interests of the group (united by class). Could idpol even exist under socialism? It’s particular to Neo-Liberalism.

Nonsense. Identity politics can be group based, or individual based. The Combahee River Collective, the likes of bell hooks, MOVE all argued for a group identity, and showed how individuals within those groups were more under the threat of, eg, imperialism, and violence than people outside of those groups.

 

[Shechemite]

This is an excellent thread on the subject of crisis houses by a comrade who access crisis houses

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Nonsense. Identity politics can be group based, or individual based. The Combahee River Collective, the likes of bell hooks, MOVE all argued for a group identity, and showed how individuals within those groups were more under the threat of, eg, imperialism, and violence than people outside of those groups.

And some in the Black Panthers recognised that they had to form commonality with people outside of their identity - class politics. For those that didn’t the outcome they argued for was Black Nationalism / separatism. Which do you think is the more preferable?

 

[newbie]

It’s a consequence of patriarchy which hopefully wouldn’t exist under socialism. Of course, it might.

on the face of that's sailing very close to saying that not only is gender a social construct that can become extinct in the absence of patriarchy but so also are biological sex differences.

But what’s happening at the moment is a consequence of the dominant ideologies we’re living under.

agree

 

[Shechemite]

View attachment 135547 This is an excellent thread on the subject of crisis houses by a comrade who access crisis houses

(a couple of the photos have come up as thumbnails)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

nothing bizarre about it at all. what i see as laziness on the one hand and invention on the other seems of a sort with the remainder of the piece. you suggest a different motive for the antifa bit but nothing about her peculiar claim about carceral feminism, a phrase i never heard until this morning.

but tell you what, search as i did for and tell me how many things actually by cw loudly ranting about it you find.

You would need to ask her what she meant but I wouldn’t subscribe to the notion that if it isn’t on the internet it didn’t happen.

 

[belboid]

And some in the Black Panthers recognised that they had to form commonality with people outside of their identity - class politics. For those that didn’t the outcome they argued for was Black Nationalism / separatism. Which do you think is the more preferable?

I dont think simplistic dichotomies are any kind of answer. That kind of group collective response is absolutely essential so that we can say more than 'patriarchy hopefully won't exist under socialism'. It is not either/or, and such a simplistic reduction does no one any favours.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I dont think simplistic dichotomies are any kind of answer. That kind of group collective response is absolutely essential so that we can say more than 'patriarchy hopefully won't exist under socialism'. It is not either/or, and such a simplistic reduction does no one any favours.

It isn’t a simple reduction, I was saying I wouldn’t want to speculate.

 

[Pickman's model]

You would need to ask her what she meant but I wouldn’t subscribe to the notion that if it isn’t on the internet it didn’t happen.

if it ain't on the internet they're hardly loud critics of carceral feminism.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

View attachment 135553
if it ain't on the internet they're hardly loud critics of carceral feminism.

I sort of get your point but eg my mother is a critic of Trump and I’d bet my last quid that isn’t on the internet.

 

[Pickman's model]

I sort of get your point but eg my mother is a critic of Trump and I’d bet my last quid that isn’t on the internet.

it is now: pls to donate a quid to the server fund. but your mother isn't, when last i checked, a prominent anarchist organization with an internet presence.

 

[belboid]

It isn’t a simple reduction, I was saying I wouldn’t want to speculate.

speculate on what??

 

[Magnus McGinty]

it is now: pls to donate a quid to the server fund. but your mother isn't, when last i checked, a prominent anarchist organization with an internet presence.

My guess was that it pertains to internal discipline rather than a policy. But it is only a guess.