Russia mobilises - consequences and reactions

[planetgeli]

Dagestan protests seem to be continuing, including some pushback against police. Obviously tricky to tell how substantial that is.

Graun live below... Or google around Makhachkala protests to see videos reposted on the usual Twitter feeds.

Russia-Ukraine war live: 2,000 detained during protests in Russia – as it happened

Latest updates: all the news and developments from the war in Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

Literally just been reading about this on Reuters and Twitter. Dagestan has suffered more casualties than any other republic, and 10x the amount suffered by Moscow, despite Moscow being many times bigger in population. Cleansing in action.

 

[redsquirrel]

I haven't got time right now to respond to all this in depth (cooking duties call). So I'll just answer your last point first. (Still a derail, I'm afraid).

There was widespread opposition to the war before it began, from the labour movement in particular, in Britain, Germany, France etc. Mass demonstrations and protests. That seemed to vanish after war broke out, but it didn't. Instead it was suppressed.

I agree that there was quite a wide opposition movement to war before it began. But once the conflict started much of the organised labour movement swung behind a nationalist line, both the British and Australian Labour Parties, the Socialists in France, the SPD in Germany, many of the Suffragettes, hell even Kroptokin.
Despite that I agree that opposition remained and grew during the war.

But you did not state that there was opposition to the war you claimed that "there was no mass movement in favour of war".

 

[Cid]

There have been various threads for discussion of background/historiography etc. None of them are active, but - much as I love an urban derail - seems a bit... missguided... on this specific thread.

Ukraine 2022 - Possible Lessons from Past Wars?

i was thinking bout other wars one could compare this one with and take heart (or despair) from; maybe the finnish winter war (and the continuation war?) stalin supposedly calculated he'd need 10-12 days to win (took 3.5 months & later led to the continuation war ), hoped for support from the...

www.urban75.net

The long term causes of war in Ukraine

I think the main thread is talking about the invasion itself as it stands now and reactions to it. Any discussion about NATO, Post soviet western relations, shock capitalism in 1990s Russia etc are a bit disruptive to it. So I've made a shiny new thread for such discussions here.

www.urban75.net

Was it inevitable? A short history of Russia’s war on Ukraine

A level-headed (longish) article. I would have posted the link in the main thread if not banned from it, rather than start a new one. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/was-it-inevitable-a-short-history-of-russias-war-on-ukraine

www.urban75.net

 

[bcuster]

Putin in hiding?

Putin has escaped to a secret palace in a forest amid anti-draft protests in Russian cities, report says

Journalist Farida Rusamova has claimed that Vladimir Putin is released pre-recorded videos sporadically to hide his absence from the Russian public.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[zahir]

More opposition to mobilisation in Dagestan

 

[nogojones]

I was going to say similar. It's a bit difficult to include the whole context on a forum most of us probably contribute to often in haste, in between doing real life, mostly with the aim of reinforcing our own bias.

With long, well thought-out posts, you just get the feeling that hardly anybody will be bothered reading them, or else skim them and then accuse you of saying something other than what you did, and so you've just wasted a small chunk of your day. Better to rant for a sentence or two, and then sign off with an insult (yes, you know who you are).

As for myself, I just like to remind people that there are causes to Russia's actions, and of the way the war could have been avoided (which apparently makes you a 'Putin Bot' who relishes bloodshed and torture.) I prefer to think of myself as the conscience of this forum.

Well that was a bit long, so I skimmed.

At least you admit yer a Putin bot!

 

[Pickman's model]

I prefer to think of myself as the conscience of this forum.

Everyone else knows a good conscience keeps quiet

 

[bluescreen]

I prefer to think of myself as the conscience of this forum.

 

[The39thStep]

I agree that there was quite a wide opposition movement to war before it began. But once the conflict started much of the organised labour movement swung behind a nationalist line, both the British and Australian Labour Parties, the Socialists in France, the SPD in Germany, many of the Suffragettes, hell even Kroptokin.
Despite that I agree that opposition remained and grew during the war.

But you did not state that there was opposition to the war you claimed that "there was no mass movement in favour of war".

Never knew the anarchists supported UK, Russia etc in WW1

 

[The39thStep]

My gut feeling is that the notion that 'every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state ' is completely reactionary and that people fleeing proscription both in Ukraine and Russia should be assisted .

 

[bluescreen]

My gut feeling is that the notion that 'every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state ' is completely reactionary and that people fleeing proscription both in Ukraine and Russia should be assisted .

View attachment 344424

Particularly unreasonable where Russian citizens are concerned. She probably doesn't want to say the quiet bit out loud, that she's afraid of the sheer numbers and who might be among them, because that would sound even worse.

 

[RD2003]

My gut feeling is that the notion that 'every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state ' is completely reactionary and that people fleeing proscription both in Ukraine and Russia should be assisted .

View attachment 344424

It's the same thing the likes of would-be Islamic suicide bombers have said as justification for their atrocities.

All she's saying is that Russia is a despotism, but stay and face the consequences of your actions at its hands.

 

[Ax^]

of course Russian men fleeing to turkey is someone's fault


does Turkey not have the same problem of enforced national service

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Particularly unreasonable where Russian citizens are concerned. She probably doesn't want to say the quiet bit out loud, that she's afraid of the sheer numbers and who might be among them, because that would sound even worse.

I think it's simpler than that. Estonia has a sizeable ethnic Russian minority population (which it treats very badly) and it doesn't want their ranks to swell.

 

[RD2003]

I think it's simpler than that. Estonia has a sizeable ethnic Russian minority population (which it treats very badly) and it doesn't want their ranks to swell.

That may be a reasonable position, actually, when you consider that just because a Russian is critical of this war, or the apparent lack of preparation, and doesn't want to go to his probable death, it doesn't necessarily mean he's not a patriot or imperialist-minded.

 

[DaveCinzano]

View attachment 344413

 

[Artaxerxes]

I think it's simpler than that. Estonia has a sizeable ethnic Russian minority population (which it treats very badly) and it doesn't want their ranks to swell.

Yes.

Part of Putins reasoning for having to invade Ukraine has been to "protect Russians abroad*" and nobody wants to give him an excuse


*now which mass murdering fuck launched a genocidal war on that basis in the 20th century, hmmm.

edit: Make no mistake, i say open the doors and let people escape. But thats the logic the Baltic states are going for

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Never knew the anarchists supported UK, Russia etc in WW1

Another derail. Most anarchists opposed the war. Some Russian exiles, led by Kropotkin, supported the war, opposing German militarism. A lot of French anarchists agreed with them. Hardly any others did. Not in Britain, Russia, Brazil, USA, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc etc

 

[RD2003]

Yes.

Part of Putins reasoning for having to invade Ukraine has been to "protect Russians abroad*" and nobody wants to give him an excuse


*now which mass murdering fuck launched a genocidal war on that basis in the 20th century, hmmm.

Spurious when you consider that if Russia can't manage to achieve its objectives in Ukraine, and has suffered the amount of damage to its military as we are told, the chances of invading an actual NATO country are next to zero. As I say above, what she's more likely concerned about is more nationalistic Russians in Estonia.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That may be a reasonable position, actually, when you consider that just because a Russian is critical of this war, or the apparent lack of preparation,doesn't want to go to his probable death, it doesn't necessarily mean he's not a patriot or imperialist-minded.

Estonian nationality laws are discriminatory. Anyone who can't trace their ancestry back to pre-1940 isn't automatically granted citizenship and there are nearly 100,000 stateless ethnic Russians there. If they'd sorted this situation in an equitable manner, they might not be so afraid of letting Russians in now.

The situation in the Baltic states isn't straightforward given their history, but a whole bunch of people in all three of them who have never lived anywhere else are treated very badly simply for being ethnic Russians.

 

[Tanya1982]

I don't think we should be in a rush to judge the ex Soviet republics, or Finland and Poland, too harshly. They have their own very specific reasons for their relationship to Russia. It's not up to us to tell them how to act.

There was a young man called Artyom on the news yesterday, in tears, because he had the wrong visa to transit Finland to claim asylum in Germany, so he was being sent right back to Russia. I felt so sorry for him. I can't see why they couldn't just stamp his passport and show him onto the first flight leaving for Germany, but that's me. They sent him back.

I'm kind of against the concept of tourist visas continuing to be issued by countries that don't want to but have been railroaded or morally guilt tripped into it. I don't know what the solution is. Perhaps land in Istanbul of Tsblisi, or one of the other cities accessible from Russia, and then immediately claim asylum at the embassy of a western country - and facilitate that, while communicating to Russians that the days of long weekends in Paris or holidays in Marbella with return tickets to Russia are no longer tenable, or welcome, and that visas won't be honoured for that.

 

[The39thStep]

That may be a reasonable position, actually, when you consider that just because a Russian is critical of this war, or the apparent lack of preparation,doesn't want to go to his probable death, it doesn't necessarily mean he's not a patriot or imperialist-minded.

perhaps some sort of filtration camps are required?

 

[Tanya1982]

Estonian nationality laws are discriminatory. Anyone who can't trace their ancestry back to pre-1940 isn't automatically granted citizenship and there are nearly 100,000 stateless ethnic Russians there. If they'd sorted this situation in an equitable manner, they might not be so afraid of letting Russians in now.

The situation in the Baltic states isn't straightforward given their history, but a whole bunch of people in all three of them who have never lived anywhere else are treated very badly simply for being ethnic Russians.

Lots of countries have discriminatory nationality laws, including the UK. Arguably, they all do. I think picking the Estonians out of the line up is unfair.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It seems pretty straightforward to me. If you send me back, I will be sent to fight in a war I think is wrong or I will be sent to jail. How is that not clear-cut grounds for asylum?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lots of countries have discriminatory nationality laws, including the UK. Arguably, they all do. I think picking the Estonians out of the line up is unfair.

Ok. I think it's entirely fair. Their attitude towards ethnic Russians stinks.

 

[Tanya1982]

It seems pretty straightforward to me. If you send me back, I will be sent to fight in a war I think is wrong or I will be sent to jail. How is that not clear-cut grounds for asylum?

Is that to me? It seems like an answer to a question I didn't pose.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is that to me?

No.

 

[Tanya1982]

Ok. I think it's entirely fair. Their attitude towards ethnic Russians stinks.

Maybe so.

 

[RD2003]

Estonian nationality laws are discriminatory. Anyone who can't trace their ancestry back to pre-1940 isn't automatically granted citizenship and there are nearly 100,000 stateless ethnic Russians there. If they'd sorted this situation in an equitable manner, they might not be so afraid of letting Russians in now.

The situation in the Baltic states isn't straightforward given their history, but a whole bunch of people in all three of them who have never lived anywhere else are treated very badly simply for being ethnic Russians.

Another anecdote: in Moscow in 1990 a Russian acquaintance had been in Belgium, and while there had purchased a car and arranged to have it shipped over. He was a Moscow resident, but the car could only be shipped to Riga (Latvia I know, but I think a similar situation regarding Russians). Despite it still being the USSR, he had a torrid time getting it released by customs and faced the vilest kind of ethnic discrimination. He was, at least outwardly, one of the most liberal of Russians, and attended the demonstrations that culminated in Yeltsin.

 

[not-bono-ever]

More opposition to mobilisation in Dagestan

He should have gone lower with that head but on the copper. Good effort tho