Russia mobilises - consequences and reactions

[Ax^]

Vietnam

 

[RD2003]

Talking of negotiations

A key adviser to Ukrainian president Zelenskiy, Mykhailo Podolyak, said “negotiations are possible” but “with the new president of Russia.”

Tweeting on Saturday, Podolyak said there is no point in negotiation with those who “dance on bones” referring to Putin and other officials.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...086bb4a78ec536#block-63381f7e8f086bb4a78ec536

 

[existentialist]

Talking of negotiations

A key adviser to Ukrainian president Zelenskiy, Mykhailo Podolyak, said “negotiations are possible” but “with the new president of Russia.”

Tweeting on Saturday, Podolyak said there is no point in negotiation with those who “dance on bones” referring to Putin and other officials.



Russia-Ukraine war: Ukrainian forces close in on Lyman; head of nuclear plant reported abducted – live

And?

 

[Flavour]

It's well annoying how unreadable this thread is cos it's mostly people feeding a troll, rd2003, who i have on ignore cos he's a waste of time

 

[teqniq]

It's well annoying how unreadable this thread is cos it's mostly people feeding a troll, rd2003, who i have on ignore cos he's a waste of time

Yeah, fair do's. Because they've been banned off the main threat they are using this one for their diversionary witterings which actually have fuck all to do with the topic.

 

[RD2003]

Yeah, fair do's. Because they've been banned off the main threat they are using this one for their diversionary witterings which actually have fuck all to do with the topic.

As if I'm the only one who's veered off the thread topic, or even the first to do so.

I suppose anybody who refuses the glib consensus is a troll in the eyes of many on here.

 

[LDC]

Thread vastly improved by having TopCat on ignore as well, they just seem to suggest Ukraine and/or the US are basically behind everything, as well as having a singular fixation on the Ukrainian far right and skating very close to denial or minimizing of Russian atrocities.

 

[JimW]

What do you think is going to happen after the negotiations that will inevitably come? And when did a (largely) defeated power not regroup?

They weren't defeated until after your scenario. Also unconvinced by your notion of some ur-Russia that could never contemplate Ukraine outside it's sphere.

 

[RD2003]

They weren't defeated until after your scenario. Also unconvinced by your notion of some ur-Russia that could never contemplate Ukraine outside it's sphere.

Not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but I don't think it's impossible to imagine a Russian government that doesn't. But such governments don't usually last long in Russia, and I see no indication that the pattern will be broken.

 

[JimW]

Not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but I don't think it's impossible to imagine a Russian government that doesn't. But such governments don't usually last long in Russia, and I see no indication that the pattern will be broken.

Take a while I expect but if facts on ground could last a generation reckon it could change. History seems as full of examples of once sacred territory being let go as eternal irredentism. Do agree them joining a hostile bloc rather than just going own way would stymie things.
E.g. get occasional burbles about Mongolia here in China but really it's gone for good as things stand.

 

[Spymaster]

And when did a (largely) defeated power not regroup?

France (1815), Japan (1945), Germany (1945), Argentina (1983) ... etc etc

 

[editor]

He might be, and he might have had the final say. But the point is that this was always coming anyway

Daft, groundless, speculative rubbish.

 

[teqniq]

Back on topic:

 

[RD2003]

Daft, groundless, speculative rubbish.

30-odd years in the making. Don't take my word for it. The former British ambassador to Russia could see what was going to happen back in 1997.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/bringingrussiain

 

[editor]

30-odd years in the making. Don't take my word for it. The former British ambassador to Russia could see what was going to happen back in 1997.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/bringingrussiain

Great logic.

 

[RD2003]

Great logic.

You stick to your evil Putin dictator apolitical narrative. Others can then go ahead and smile patronisingly.

 

[Artaxerxes]

This is a myth, they were on their knees and ready to sue for peace and the US government knew it. They wanted to test their magic bombs in the field and put the shit up every other country in the world. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians lost their lives, mostly in horrific pain over the course of several days, for this.

They were ready to submit to peace “with conditions” and with the Russians acting as neutral parties.

The allies demand was to put everything down with no conditions and the soviets were gleefully preparing to roll into China and over the Sea of Japan while pinky swearing they’d listen to Japan and look after them.

Even after the big E surrendered military forces kept trying to launch coups to reverse the decision.

The nuclear bombs were a grim loss of life but the Japanese had been beaten since 1942/1943 and hadn’t given up despite appealing wastes of life on both side. There were upsides (for the US forces) to using the nukes in making sure people were aware they existed but conventional bombing had already killed hundreds of thousands in similar raids and Japan was still fighting.

We all like there to be no nuclear bombs but there’s a lot of myth building from both sides in the decision - with many of the culprits saying “oh of course I didn’t mean to spend 5 years building it” or “I never thought we’d use it” in self serving autobiography or interviews years later

 

[A380]

It's well annoying how unreadable this thread is cos it's mostly people feeding a troll, rd2003, who i have on ignore cos he's a waste of time

I just took hime off briefly because of all the activity on this thread. Well, that was a waste of 10 minutes...

 

[editor]

You stick to your evil Putin dictator apolitical narrative. Others can then go ahead and smile patronisingly.

You don't think he's an evil dictator? How many more civilians need to be slaughtered in the unwinnable war he created before the light goes on above your dim head?

And who are these 'others' all smiling away?

 

[nogojones]

None of the grain shipments have been attacked etc.

I'm not sure it was negotiations that secured that. I think it's more down to inability to secure the Black sea and fear of escalation if neutral merchant ships out to feed the starving started going down.

But it's nice to believe Putin has a heart deep down.

 

[RD2003]

You don't think he's an evil dictator? How many more civilians need to be slaughtered before the light goes on above your dim head?

And who are these 'others' all smiling away?

Have I said he isn't evil (for what that's worth and if such a thing truly exists)? As for dictator, I've many times pointed out that while his rule might be dictatorial now, it wasn't so much at first, or for quite some afterwards. That tendency seemed to grow along with his ambitions and apparent conversion to some variant of mystical Russian nationalism.

The slaughter taking place is only slightly connected to the personality/character of the man. Slaughter takes place in all wars, and not all of them feature Bond baddie 'evil dictators.'

The 'others' are my fellow 'Putin Bots' who work alongside me here in HQ.

 

[nogojones]

Talking of negotiations

A key adviser to Ukrainian president Zelenskiy, Mykhailo Podolyak, said “negotiations are possible” but “with the new president of Russia.”

Tweeting on Saturday, Podolyak said there is no point in negotiation with those who “dance on bones” referring to Putin and other officials.



Russia-Ukraine war: Ukrainian forces close in on Lyman; head of nuclear plant reported abducted – live

That seems reasonable, and may be aimed at pushing elements of the Russian ruling class to defenstrate Putin to save their own skins.

 

[existentialist]

You stick to your evil Putin dictator apolitical narrative. Others can then go ahead and smile patronisingly.

By "others", I take it you mean "I"? Because you're pretty much a lone voice on this. Which does make me wonder what on earth it is that you get out of involving yourself in these discussions, unless it's just that you enjoy the attention.

 

[A380]

They were ready to submit to peace “with conditions” and with the Russians acting as neutral parties.

The allies demand was to put everything down with no conditions and the soviets were gleefully preparing to roll into China and over the Sea of Japan while pinky swearing they’d listen to Japan and look after them.

Even after the big E surrendered military forces kept trying to launch coups to reverse the decision.

The nuclear bombs were a grim loss of life but the Japanese had been beaten since 1942/1943 and hadn’t given up despite appealing wastes of life on both side. There were upsides (for the US forces) to using the nukes in making sure people were aware they existed but conventional bombing had already killed hundreds of thousands in similar raids and Japan was still fighting.

We all like there to be no nuclear bombs but there’s a lot of myth building from both sides in the decision - with many of the culprits saying “oh of course I didn’t mean to spend 5 years building it” or “I never thought we’d use it” in self serving autobiography or interviews years later

George McDonald Fraser (of Flashman fame) who had been a private solider through the Burma campaign* and was in preparation for what was expected to be opposed landings into Japan wrote of this argument. "Would you give up your life, and the life of any children you had after you were 24, in exchange for the life of one of the people killed at Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Because that is what you would have been asking us to do.) . There was a lot of cold war myth making about the atomic bombings just as there was around other horrendous destruction of entire cities, Dresden, Coventry, Hamburg for example. (My mum spent time on a YCL work camp rebuilding Dresden** in 1964 so it's not hypothetical to my family but its also not straightforward.)

* He got a commission after the war and spent time in North Africa which he wrote about in his excellent McAuslan books.

** Actually, she spent a week rebuilding then put a pickaxe through her foot so spent a month watching other people rebuild Dresden whilst taking pictures and drinking beer, her construction skills being not as good as her understanding of Marxist theory...

 

[RD2003]

That seems reasonable, and may be aimed at pushing elements of the Russian ruling class to defenstrate Putin to save their own skins.

Yes, they appear to be appealing over Putin's head to other elements in the regime, just like I said they could have done in earlier negotiations.

 

[RD2003]

By "others", I take it you mean "I"? Because you're pretty much a lone voice on this. Which does make me wonder what on earth it is that you get out of involving yourself in these discussions, unless it's just that you enjoy the attention.

Obviously, I get rubles. Lots of them. Worthless here, but I'm saving them for my retirement to a villa on the Crimean Black Sea coast.

 

[xenon]

As if I'm the only one who's veered off the thread topic, or even the first to do so.

I suppose anybody who refuses the glib consensus is a troll in the eyes of many on here.

Glib? The fucking gall of it. When you come out with the, they should have just tried more negotiations stuff

 

[spitfire]

George McDonald Fraser (of Flashman fame) who had been a private solider through the Burma campaign* and was in preparation for what was expected to be opposed landings into Japan wrote of this argument. "Would you give up your life, and the life of any children you had after you were 24, in exchange for the life of one of the people killed at Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Because that is what you would have been asking us to do.) . There was a lot of cold war myth making about the atomic bombings just as there was around other horrendous destruction of entire cities, Dresden, Coventry, Hamburg for example. (My mum spent time on a YCL work camp rebuilding Dresden** in 1964 so it's not hypothetical to my family but its also not straightforward.)

* He got a commission after the war and spent time in North Africa which he wrote about in his excellent McAuslan books.

** Actually, she spent a week rebuilding then put a pickaxe through her foot so spent a month watching other people rebuild Dresden whilst taking pictures and drinking beer, her construction skills being not as good as her understanding of Marxist theory...

Good book on his experiences here, (I'm guessing you've read it). Although some of his attitudes are definitely of another time...

Quartered Safe Out Here: A Harrowing Tale of World War …

George MacDonald Fraser—beloved for his series of Flash…

www.goodreads.com

 

[A380]

Good book on his experiences here, (I'm guessing you've read it). Although some of his attitudes are definitely of another time...

Quartered Safe Out Here: A Harrowing Tale of World War …

George MacDonald Fraser—beloved for his series of Flash…

www.goodreads.com

I really 'liked' that book. But it is a very tough read. Not al all like his fiction or the Mc Auslan stuff. Should be required reading for anyone who thinks war might be a 'jolly'.

 

[RD2003]

France (1815), Japan (1945), Germany (1945), Argentina (1983) ... etc etc

They did regroup. Japan and Germany, however, were incorporated into a kind of partnership with the West, as, I think, that article I've linked to by the former UK ambassador to Russia points out. Russia after the abandonment of the SU was slowly and stupidly alienated-as he also points out.