Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[purenarcotic]

to be honest, i'm jewish, but there's plenty of things about the jewish religion i don't like, and this is one of them. i don't know how anyone can object to stunning the animals I am sure most religious Jews wouldnt have a problem with stunning them either. A lot of people probably don't even know they're not pre-stunned.

Well the argument against stunning would be that it is modern practice interfering with tradition. The Talmud doesn't talk about stunning equipment so they cant use it. Remember, the Beth Din are the extreme of the extreme, we're not dealing with hugely rational people here.

 

[frogwoman]

There's a difference between the way the RSPCA talk about religious slaughter and the way fash (or whoever) talk about it. The RSPCA don't want people to change their practices, just the crueller elements of them, so they'd want people to make sure the animal was stunned before was killed. The fash don't give a shit about animal cruelty and would just like it to be banned because it's "not compatible with our traditions" or whatever, they'd use it in propaganda sure, but they'd otherwise pay absolutely no mind to the fact that the procedures were changed because they weren't as cruel any more, that's not what they're about.

 

[purenarcotic]

As a wild guess, it might be to ensure the quality of the meat - an animal that doesn't seem fully alert may have been drugged to make capture/transport easier, or it could be sick.

No, that is checked out beforehand. Any animal killed for kosher must be in good enough health to live for at least another year should it not be slaughtered (i.e. it needs to be completely healthy). That stuff is checked out prior to the slaughterers going in to kill the animal itself.

 

[Pickman's model]

I posted the RSPCA factsheet earlier. Eduate yourself, for fuck's sake. It takes seconds for the animal to die and most halal and kosher meat is pre-stunned. When it is pre-stunned, the method is precisely the same as that used for most animals in most UK abattoirs, precisely because it is the most humane method.

Fucking hell, this is like wading through treacle.

you will recall I was replying to a post saying the animal didn't bleed to death but died of oxygen starvation to the brain. You seem to be arguing that brain death takes a couple of seconds when the incision is made. I do not believe you.

 

[youngian]

They'll be plenty of time for these men to have interfaith discussions on how culture impacts on their crimes now they are thankfully banged up on a multi-racial nonce wing for the next few years.

 

[Pickman's model]

Utter nonsense. Cook up a steak that hasn't been allowed to bleed after slaughter and post up the video of you gagging on it.

Blood stops pumping out of the wound when the heart stops. It does not magically stop draining away when you hang the carcass up to bleed.

do you bother reading other people's posts? I wonder as we covered this ground before your tardy intervention

 

[ymu]

Well your whole argument, such as it was, is entirely discredited by your own fucking shit attitude towards those who object to halal slaughtering without stunning.

You're all over the shop.

Why are you pretending that I have condoned killing without stunning? I am criticising those who blithely declare that it is a barbaric method of killing without making the distinction or noting that the vast majority is stunned in the UK, and without acknowledging that with stunning it is precisely the same method as used by virtually all UK abattoirs.

In this form, the argument comes straight from racists and/or extremist Christian groups. Take a bit more care with how you formulate your argument, and you won't look like you've been taken in by them. If the absence of stunning bothers you, you could avoid all halal/kosher meat just in case, or you could ask the butcher before buying it. If you choose the former option, be clear about your reasons - don't rely on crass generalisations lifted straight from anti-semitic/islamophobic pamphleteers.

 

[ymu]

Well what's wrong with that argument? If he doesn't think it's killed humanely, why should he have to serve it? How is that racist in any way whatsoever? I just don't understand your point at all. There is nothing racist, or wrong, about not wanting to eat kosher or halal meat.

Personally, I think the process is humane. But I understand the concerns of those who think it should be stunned (and I have to say I wouldn't be bothered at all if it came to be that kosher / hahal meat had to be stunned before killing), because it could be argued that we can't necessarily know 100%. So if somebody wants to err on the side of caution, I see no issue with that. I just do not understand how it's racist.

If he's refusing to serve any kosher/halal regardless of whether stunning was used, and he justifies it on animal welfare grounds, then he should also refuse to serve most of the meat slaughtered in the UK because most of it it slaughtered using exactly the same method (how many times do I have to point this out? ).

I made this point directly to Danny when I responded to his post. He hasn't had a chance to respond to that post yet, so I don't know whether he's consistent in his beliefs or not. If he doesn't apply the same rules to meat slaughtered by exactly the same methods, then I consider him ill-informed (because I don't believe he is a racist). If he does apply the same rules equally to all meat, then I don't understand why he singled out halal and kosher in his post instead of mentioning that he has to get his meat from a specialist supplier in order to live up to his beliefs about animal welfare.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why are you pretending that I have condoned killing without stunning? I am criticising those who blithely declare that it is a barbaric method of killing without making the distinction or noting that the vast majority is stunned in the UK, and without acknowledging that with stunning it is precisely the same method as used by virtually all UK abattoirs.

In this form, the argument comes straight from racists and/or extremist Christian groups. Take a bit more care with how you formulate your argument, and you won't look like you've been taken in by them. If the absence of stunning bothers you, you could avoid all halal/kosher meat just in case, or you could ask the butcher before buying it. If you choose the former option, be clear about your reasons - don't rely on crass generalisations lifted straight from anti-semitic/islamophobic pamphleteers.

You've dodged the issue again. It is illegal to kill without stunning first except for the case of halal/kosher, where an exception is made to that law on religious grounds.

Because of that exception, animals are killed without stunning first in the UK totally legally.

Perhaps you don't think this has anything to do with religion? I don't know. You're certainly running around here accusing people of being racists or stupid dupes if they do.

 

[ymu]

Yes, when out shopping it's reasonable to expect people to trace the food back to source. In order to do that you'd have to go through the retailer's purchasing department, then probably through another purchasing department for the supplier. You're getting silly now.

Any halal butcher can tell you where their meat came from. They're not fucking Tesco.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Any halal butcher can tell you where their meat came from. They're not fucking Tesco.

Thinking about the various large, busy butchers I used to go to on Green Lanes in London, I doubt this. Most of the people serving at the counter would have no idea.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Any halal butcher can tell you where their meat came from. They're not fucking Tesco.

No but tesco are aren't they?

 

[ymu]

Thinking about the various large, busy butchers I used to go to on Green Lanes in London, I doubt this. Most of the people serving at the counter would have no idea.

I think you should probably ask them before dismissing their professionalism. If you can't be bothered to ask, no problem - just don't make crass generalisations in order to justify your own laziness.

 

[8ball]

No, that is checked out beforehand. Any animal killed for kosher must be in good enough health to live for at least another year should it not be slaughtered (i.e. it needs to be completely healthy). That stuff is checked out prior to the slaughterers going in to kill the animal itself.

Fair enough - like I said, wild guess.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think you should probably ask them before dismissing their professionalism. If you can't be bothered to ask, no problem - just don't make crass generalisations in order to justify your own laziness.

Oh fuck off. You don't even know the kinds of places I'm talking about.

 

[ymu]

No but tesco are aren't they?

Tesco don't sell unstunned halal.

Apologies for the EDL link. They followed it up when the Daily Mail ran some hysterical headline about Tesco secretly selling halal.

http://englishdefenceleague.........org/forum/e-activism/tesco-response-regarding-halal/

Dear Mr

Thank you for contacting us regarding the sale of Halal meat in our stores.

We sell Halal meat in our stores to meet customer demand and to demonstrate that everyone is welcome at Tesco.
I would like to reassure you that we require all slaughter processes in our supply chain, including Halal, to meet our stringent animal welfare requirements. In every case, the animal is stunned before slaughter so that it is insensible and feels no pain.

Like all other major UK supermarkets, we source from suppliers who serve Muslim as well as non-Muslim customers. Some of these suppliers process all their meat to Halal standards. For example, all New Zealand lamb meets Halal standards. In these cases, all of our processes still meet the same stringent animal welfare requirements and all animals are stunned prior to slaughter whether the meat is sold as Halal or non-Halal.

I would like to assure you that the cost of redesigning the label to add an extra section on religious method of slaughter would incur a significant cost, which would have to be passed on to the customer.

We do, however, understand that there are a very small number of customers who, for religious reasons, would like to know if the meat they are eating is Halal. We are very happy to be entirely transparent about this.

All fresh meat we sell is not Halal, except for lamb and chicken and of those ranges we can absolutely assure you that if you buy British organic lamb and chicken as well as the Willow Farm and Finest Free Range lines, these will not be Halal either.

Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention. I hope that the above information is helpful.

Kind regards

Ann-Marie Bunston
Tesco Customer Service

 

[Frances Lengel]

Good job white blokes never do that eh?

That was a fairly selective quote.

I think you're a safe guy, dwyer, but let anyone who's never lived in rochdale chat about rochdale.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Any halal butcher can tell you where their meat came from. They're not fucking Tesco.

No halal meat in major supermarket chains?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Pickman's model]

Why are you pretending that I have condoned killing without stunning? I am criticising those who blithely declare that it is a barbaric method of killing without making the distinction or noting that the vast majority is stunned in the UK, and without acknowledging that with stunning it is precisely the same method as used by virtually all UK abattoirs.

In this form, the argument comes straight from racists and/or extremist Christian groups. Take a bit more care with how you formulate your argument, and you won't look like you've been taken in by them. If the absence of stunning bothers you, you could avoid all halal/kosher meat just in case, or you could ask the butcher before buying it. If you choose the former option, be clear about your reasons - don't rely on crass generalisations lifted straight from anti-semitic/islamophobic pamphleteers.

I can't be alone in feeling that all ways of killing animals for human consumption are barbaric

 

[SpineyNorman]

Tesco don't sell unstunned halal.

Apologies for the EDL link. They followed it up when the Daily Mail ran some hysterical headline about Tesco secretly selling halal.

http://englishdefenceleague.........org/forum/e-activism/tesco-response-regarding-halal/

Fair enough - I'd break that link if I were you though. And I still maintain that you're living in a dream world if you really think it's possible for people to check the origin of every piece of meat.

What's happened here is that you've flown off the handle without engaging your brain and now you've gone too far in your accusations about others to admit you were wrong.

 

[Ranbay]

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Any halal butcher can tell you where their meat came from. They're not fucking Tesco.

These people seem to disagree.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Pickman's model]

Fair enough - I'd break that link if I were you though. And I still maintain that you're living in a dream world if you really think it's possible for people .e origin of every piece of meat.

What's happened here is that you've flown off the handle without engaging your brain and now you've gone too far in your accusations about others to admit you were wrong.

I can only assume she was unaware of the longstanding prohibition of linking to far right sites

 

[ymu]

Fair enough - I'd break that link if I were you though. And I still maintain that you're living in a dream world if you really think it's possible for people to check the origin of every piece of meat.

What's happened here is that you've flown off the handle without engaging your brain and now you've gone too far in your accusations about others to admit you were wrong.

I did break the link - you quoted a broken link (and saw no need to break it yourself). Great to know how carefully my posts are being read though.

If you're buying from a supermarket, they almost certainly have a corporate policy of only selling meat which complies with the highest welfare standards, ie stunned. I haven't checked them all, but I'd be amazed to find a corporate without that policy.

If you're buying from a butcher, they will know where their meat comes from. If they're specifically selling it as halal, they will know whether it is stunned because they get asked about it all the time.

I do fly off the handle when I hear people repeating racist tropes - it causes harm to innocent people and has had a rather devastating impact on my life as well as that of much of my family. It's not something I can find easy to be laid back about. I don't think it is me getting their facts wrong. But facts are different from opinions, and you are entitled to yours.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I did break the link - you quoted a broken link. Great to know how carefully my posts are being read though.

If you're buying from a supermarket, they almost certainly have a corporate policy of only selling meat which complies with the highest welfare standards, ie stunned. I haven't checked them all, but I'd be amazed to find a corporate without that policy.

If you're buying from a butcher, they will know where their meat comes from. If they're specifically selling it as halal, they will know whether it is stunned because they get asked about it all the time.

I do fly off the handle when I hear people repeating racist tropes - it causes harm to innocent people and has had a rather devastating impact on my life as well as that of much of my family. It's not something I can find easy to be laid back about. I don't think it is me getting their facts wrong. But facts are different from opinions, and you are entitled to yours.

It's your facts that are being disputed though. See the link Louis MacNeice just posted - are those Muslims also repeating racist tropes about themselves? And if you asked the butcher's at my local meat market where the meat came from they'd laugh at you. Maybe you can make such demands of quality mutchers, but not the cheap ones a hell of a lot of people use.

And I've already said I don't really care whether my meat is stunned or not - so long as it's cheap, tastes good and doesn't give me the shits I'm a happy customer. What I'm bothered about is unfair accusations of racism flying about - I've been the victim of such smears myself in the past and it's not acceptable.

 

[ymu]

No halal meat in major supermarket chains?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I see you've already decided that this point won't wash, so you're trying this instead:

These people seem to disagree.

Louis MacNeice

Bit desperate, no? That's a commercial site selling its wares by complaining that other suppliers are not halal enough. They're a niche, serving the market that is not happy about the much laxer approach to halal necessitated by the mass production of meat.

There are only about a dozen licensed halal abattoirs in the UK. The majority of halal meat is produced in standard abattoirs, which is easy, because they use exactly the same killing methods as those required for halal (as I think I may have mentioned one or two times before). The only other requirement is that someone of an Abrahamic faith says a prayer. Some Muslims would prefer that it was specifically a Muslim who says the prayer, and some would prefer that a prayer is said for each individual carcass rather than one for a load of them.

That's what your site is all about. It has nothing to do with whether a butcher selling halal meat will know whether it is stunned or not. There are only a dozen abattoirs in the country that could supply them with stunned meat in the first place. To assume that they wouldn't know is just ridiculous.

 

[Citizen66]

So, anyway, child abusers...

 

[SpineyNorman]

I see you've already decided that this point won't wash, so you're trying this instead:



Bit desperate, no? That's a commercial site selling its wares by complaining that other suppliers are not halal enough. They're a niche, serving the market that is not happy about the much laxer approach to halal necessitated by the mass production of meat.

There are only about a dozen licensed halal abattoirs in the UK. The majority of halal meat is produced in standard abattoirs, which is easy, because they use exactly the same killing methods as those required for halal (as I think I may have mentioned one or two times before). The only other requirement is that someone of an Abrahamic faith says a prayer. Some Muslims would prefer that it was specifically a Muslim who says the prayer, and some would prefer that a prayer is said for each individual carcass rather than one for a load of them.

That's what your site is all about. It has nothing to do with whether a butcher selling halal meat will know whether it is stunned or not. There are only a dozen abattoirs in the country that could supply them with stunned meat in the first place. To assume that they wouldn't know is just ridiculous.

Can you tell us what concerned consumers should do when using cheap meat markets where almost all the meat is imported? Thanks.

 

[ymu]

It's your facts that are being disputed though. See the link Louis MacNeice just posted - are those Muslims also repeating racist tropes about themselves? And if you asked the butcher's at my local meat market where the meat came from they'd laugh at you. Maybe you can make such demands of quality mutchers, but not the cheap ones a hell of a lot of people use.

And I've already said I don't really care whether my meat is stunned or not - so long as it's cheap, tastes good and doesn't give me the shits I'm a happy customer. What I'm bothered about is unfair accusations of racism flying about - I've been the victim of such smears myself in the past and it's not acceptable.

You could have checked the site more carefully before assuming he had made a valid point.

I am not calling anyone racist. I am calling the description of halal/kosher slaughter as letting the animal "bleed to death" a racist trope. I have been quite careful to assume that people have been taken in by racist/extremist Christian literature on this rather than being knowingly racist when they repeat it/act on it.

Any more straws you wanna grab at?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I see you've already decided that this point won't wash, so you're trying this instead:



Bit desperate, no? That's a commercial site selling its wares by complaining that other suppliers are not halal enough. They're a niche, serving the market that is not happy about the much laxer approach to halal necessitated by the mass production of meat.

There are only about a dozen licensed halal abattoirs in the UK. The majority of halal meat is produced in standard abattoirs, which is easy, because they use exactly the same killing methods as those required for halal (as I think I may have mentioned one or two times before). The only other requirement is that someone of an Abrahamic faith says a prayer. Some Muslims would prefer that it was specifically a Muslim who says the prayer, and some would prefer that a prayer is said for each individual carcass rather than one for a load of them.

That's what your site is all about. It has nothing to do with whether a butcher selling halal meat will know whether it is stunned or not. There are only a dozen abattoirs in the country that could supply them with stunned meat in the first place. To assume that they wouldn't know is just ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is the position you've got yourself in where you cannot even admit the obvious possibility, that the pressures of profitability and demands for affordable meat, may produce a situation where both consumer and butcher are not at all fussed with their meat's provenance, so long as it at least superficially fits the bill. Is that your class blindness showing?

Louis MacNeice

p.s. the last sentence was a joke.