Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[bamalama]

Bull fucking shit. I would NEVER serve somebody kosher meat if they had a problem with it. Ever. What I choose (or do not choose, I don't keep strictly kosher at all tbh) to eat is my choice and thus, it is other people's choice too. I wouldn't force a veggie to eat meat and I would prepare their meal with different utensils. Likewise, I wouldn't make somebody who ate kosher eat non kosher meat, nor would I make somebody who has a problem with it eat it. Some of my quite religious Christian friends would have a problem eating kosher produce because the blessing said over it is not of their faith. That's fine by me, they don't have to eat it, they're not being anti-Semitic as a consequence ffs.

Race has nothing to do with it. Just because you see race and religion as the same thing doesn't mean the rest of us do. Judaism perceived as a race has been half our fucking problem to be perfectly frank.

I've always found the two most vocal groups concerning jewish people being a race apart are fascists and hassidim/ashkenazi fundamentalists...fucking strange

edit : i know it's off topic,but the threads waaay off topic anyway.Religious dietry requirements...who gives a fuck,apart from those who abide by them...

 

[frogwoman]

I always thought most sikhs were vegetarians tbh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you're rejecting it on welfare grounds, then you have to reject virtually all meat slaughtered in the UK.

Are you being wilfully obtuse?

 

[ymu]

Fyi: bleeding stops when life is extinct as the pump - the heart - has stopped.

Utter nonsense. Cook up a steak that hasn't been allowed to bleed after slaughter and post up the video of you gagging on it.

Blood stops pumping out of the wound when the heart stops. It does not magically stop draining away when you hang the carcass up to bleed.

 

[ymu]

Here is a big problem, I think. You brand as 'racist' opinions about religious beliefs. One is not allowed to say a particular belief is absurd because it is a 'protected' belief. Religious beliefs are not to be subject to the same level of scrutiny as other kinds of beliefs.


Hmmm.

That's because you're an atheist, not a secularist. You don't have to agree with someone's religious views to respect them.

 

[purenarcotic]

I've always found the two most vocal groups concerning jewish people being a race apart are fascists and hassidim/ashkenazi fundamentalists...fucking strange

edit : i know it's off topic,but the threads waaay off topic anyway.Religious dietry requirements...who gives a fuck,apart from those who abide by them...

That's because fundamentalists, on either side of an argument are about as mad as each other.

 

[ymu]

Just to clear this up, don't think you've been clever here.

1) Jhatka slaughtered meat is readily available in certain places. If Kris is going to eat it we get it from butchers in Southall. It hasn't always been readily available and Sikh clerics decreed that the principle of minimal suffering to the animal was more important than the actual method of slaughter. Therefore Sikh's could eat any meat that they were satisfied abided by this principle, to the specific exclusion of kuttha meat (ritualistically slaughtered), which they believe certainly does not.

As a result the wife only eats meat that is either Jhatka or that she is satisfied is produced with the highest standards of animal welfare. This means she rarely eats meat. Which of course makes her a racist.

2)


This is a joke, right?

3)


You really are a moron.

4)


Still avoiding this, you fucking toad?

So why did you single out halal, rather than pointing out that virtually all UK abattoirs use killing methods that she disagrees with?

You were using her religion to justify your racism. Very low.

 

[8ball]

That's because you're an atheist, not a secularist. You don't have to agree with someone's religious views to respect them.

Respecting someone's right to their views is not the same as respecting the actual views.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's because you're an atheist, not a secularist. You don't have to agree with someone's religious views to respect them.

No it's not. Being secularist does not mean refraining from commenting on any belief because it is 'religious'.

 

[ymu]

Bull fucking shit. I would NEVER serve somebody kosher meat if they had a problem with it. Ever. What I choose (or do not choose, I don't keep strictly kosher at all tbh) to eat is my choice and thus, it is other people's choice too. I wouldn't force a veggie to eat meat and I would prepare their meal with different utensils. Likewise, I wouldn't make somebody who ate kosher eat non kosher meat, nor would I make somebody who has a problem with it eat it. Some of my quite religious Christian friends would have a problem eating kosher produce because the blessing said over it is not of their faith. That's fine by me, they don't have to eat it, they're not being anti-Semitic as a consequence ffs.

Race has nothing to do with it. Just because you see race and religion as the same thing doesn't mean the rest of us do. Judaism perceived as a race has been half our fucking problem to be perfectly frank.

Danny said he would refuse to serve it in his restaurant, not that he would not force someone to eat it. Your post has nothing to do with anything I have said.

 

[ymu]

It takes about four minutes without oxygen before brain death occurs. What is happening in those four minutes?

I posted the RSPCA factsheet earlier. Eduate yourself, for fuck's sake. It takes seconds for the animal to die and most halal and kosher meat is pre-stunned. When it is pre-stunned, the method is precisely the same as that used for most animals in most UK abattoirs, precisely because it is the most humane method.

Fucking hell, this is like wading through treacle.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I posted the RSPCA factsheet earlier. Eduate yourself, for fuck's sake. It takes seconds for the animal to die and most halal and kosher meat is pre-stunned. When it is pre-stunned, the method is precisely the same as that used for most animals in most UK abattoirs, precisely because it is the most humane method.

Fucking hell, this is like wading through treacle.

I think it's the "most" part that is the problem. The worry is (not for me, I just don't consider it that important) how do you know whether your meat has come from one of the places that doesn't stun?

 

[8ball]

I posted the RSPCA factsheet earlier. Eduate yourself, for fuck's sake. It takes seconds for the animal to die and most halal and kosher meat is pre-stunned. When it is pre-stunned, the method is precisely the same as that used for most animals in most UK abattoirs, precisely because it is the most humane method.

Fucking hell, this is like wading through treacle.

I think if DLR, LBJ etc. could be confident they were getting the pre-stunned stuff there wouldn't be such a problem, but it is the (potential) difference between a few seconds of suffering and perhaps a fraction of a second of suffering that they are concerned about (if I'm reading things right).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I posted the RSPCA factsheet earlier. Eduate yourself, for fuck's sake. It takes seconds for the animal to die and most halal and kosher meat is pre-stunned. When it is pre-stunned, the method is precisely the same as that used for most animals in most UK abattoirs, precisely because it is the most humane method.

Fucking hell, this is like wading through treacle.

Educate yourself fffs. That document is covered in big letters stating the RSPCA's opinion that not stunning the animal ought not to be allowed. It is allowed. So far you have had absolutely nothing to say about that fact.

 

[purenarcotic]

Danny said he would refuse to serve it in his restaurant, not that he would not force someone to eat it. Your post has nothing to do with anything I have said.

Yes it does. If I ran a restaurant I wouldn't sell people kosher / halal meat without clearly informing them they were about to eat it, in case they have cultural or religious reasons as to why they would prefer not to. That would be hugely disingenuous of me as a restaurant owner to try and serve my customers something they might feel uncomfortable about.

Race has nothing to do with it. You are not racist for not wanting to eat kosher or halal meat. You're not anything. It's personal preference.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's the "most" part that is the problem. The worry is (not for me, I just don't consider it that important) how do you know whether your meat has come from one of the places that doesn't stun?

It's not something of massive importance to me tbh, but I think this argument is illustrative of the wider point - the thing that stops people from discussing religious or cultural aspects to subjects such as the OP.

 

[ymu]

Respecting someone's right to their views is not the same as respecting the actual views.

Comes down to semantics really - I think it's fine to think it is absurd, but not to ridicule people for a religious belief that harms no one.

Denying others the right to follow their religious beliefs is racist - suppressing other cultures is a defining feature of fascism. Islamic and Jewish scholars have found a way to ensure that their religious rules can be followed whilst being compliant with UK law on animal welfare. It is not (yet) a legal requirement, but in practice it is only a tiny percentage of halal/kosher meat that is not stunned before slaughter. To continue to object to all halal/kosher based on this tiny percentage is absurd.

Those who campaign for the law to be changed to cover all religious slaughter would get a lot further if they weren't so prone to repeating racist tropes on the subject. It makes it harder to change the law when the debate is flooded with misinformation, most of it published by racists (or extremist Christians).

 

[ymu]

I think it's the "most" part that is the problem. The worry is (not for me, I just don't consider it that important) how do you know whether your meat has come from one of the places that doesn't stun?

Food laws ensure that meat can be traced back from the retail outlet to the farm it came from. The butcher will know, and if they don't, go somewhere else.

 

[frogwoman]

My mum doesn't like kosher meat because there's too LITTLE blood in it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To continue to object to all halal/kosher based on this tiny percentage is absurd..

Absurd?

Really?

Absurd. That word?

 

[ymu]

Yes it does. If I ran a restaurant I wouldn't sell people kosher / halal meat without clearly informing them they were about to eat it, in case they have cultural or religious reasons as to why they would prefer not to. That would be hugely disingenuous of me as a restaurant owner to try and serve my customers something they might feel uncomfortable about.

Race has nothing to do with it. You are not racist for not wanting to eat kosher or halal meat. You're not anything. It's personal preference.

I didn't say anything about serving it to people without telling them.

The scenario Danny gave me was him running a restaurant that refused to serve it on welfare grounds. Stop trying to twist what I said to the arguments you want to make, please.

 

[purenarcotic]

This may (or may not) be of interest to folk; kosher slaughterers discussing the process. There is some blood, but no actual footage of the animal being killed, in case anybody's a wee bit squeamish.



They seem to believe it is the blood pressure that goes quick, so for them it is a bleeding out method. Remember there are far fewer kosher slaughter houses than there are halal, because the Jewish population is considerably smaller and stunning is not used here, so you're quite likely to have unstunned meat should you go kosher (in fact there might only now be one or two serving the whole UK).

 

[ymu]

Absurd?

Really?

Absurd. That word?

Yes.

 

[nino_savatte]

I always thought most sikhs were vegetarians tbh.

No. The Gurdwaras offer vegetarian food because everyone can eat it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes.

Well your whole argument, such as it was, is entirely discredited by your own fucking shit attitude towards those who object to halal slaughtering without stunning.

You're all over the shop.

 

[frogwoman]

to be honest, i'm jewish, but there's plenty of things about the jewish religion i don't like, and this is one of them. i don't know how anyone can object to stunning the animals I am sure most religious Jews wouldnt have a problem with stunning them either. A lot of people probably don't even know they're not pre-stunned.

 

[8ball]

Comes down to semantics really - I think it's fine to think it is absurd, but not to ridicule people for a religious belief that harms no one.

I agree there, but when beliefs are up for discussion I don't believe those of a religious nature should enjoy any special privilege.

Denying others the right to follow their religious beliefs is racist...

I don't think it is racist by definition, though I think it can be a facet of generally racist policies. The distinction is important though.

 

[purenarcotic]

I didn't say anything about serving it to people without telling them.

The scenario Danny gave me was him running a restaurant that refused to serve it on welfare grounds. Stop trying to twist what I said to the arguments you want to make, please.

Well what's wrong with that argument? If he doesn't think it's killed humanely, why should he have to serve it? How is that racist in any way whatsoever? I just don't understand your point at all. There is nothing racist, or wrong, about not wanting to eat kosher or halal meat.

Personally, I think the process is humane. But I understand the concerns of those who think it should be stunned (and I have to say I wouldn't be bothered at all if it came to be that kosher / hahal meat had to be stunned before killing), because it could be argued that we can't necessarily know 100%. So if somebody wants to err on the side of caution, I see no issue with that. I just do not understand how it's racist.

 

[8ball]

to be honest, i'm jewish, but there's plenty of things about the jewish religion i don't like, and this is one of them. i don't know how anyone can object to stunning the animals I am sure most religious Jews wouldnt have a problem with stunning them either. A lot of people probably don't even know they're not pre-stunned.

As a wild guess, it might be to ensure the quality of the meat - an animal that doesn't seem fully alert may have been drugged to make capture/transport easier, or it could be sick.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Food laws ensure that meat can be traced back from the retail outlet to the farm it came from. The butcher will know, and if they don't, go somewhere else.

Yes, when out shopping it's reasonable to expect people to trace the food back to source. In order to do that you'd have to go through the retailer's purchasing department, then probably through another purchasing department for the supplier. You're getting silly now.