Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[danny la rouge]

She's also avoided answering Danny la Rouge's post at #501 because it'd be impossible for her to do so and maintain her bigoted position.

I honestly think that the issue outlined there is at the root of the difficulty some people are having on this thread.

 

[ymu]

This one, danny?

Your shibboleths are in conflict.

Spymaster said: "she is Sikh, and ritual slaughter is forbidden, as is any method of slaughter which violates the principle of "Jhatka" ". So, as a Sikh, Mrs Spy can't eat ritually slaughtered meat. It is racist to condemn her for that? Or is her Sikh principle of Jhatka, as you have already insinuated, itself racist? Which is the anti racist way forward here?

I'm not being flippant, this is at the heart of the knots you have tied yourself into on this thread.

And what about me? I'm not a Sikh, but I too refuse to eat Halal or Kosher meat.

I never said she was racist for not eating halal food. I wouldn't expect anyone with a different religious belief to be comfortable with it. Some are, some are not. Many Jews and Muslims regard halal and kosher as reasonable substitutes for each other because the rules are basically the same, although kosher has more rules that might prevent some more religious Jews from eating halal meat.

What I did say was that characterising halal/kosher killing as 'bleeding to death' is a racist trope. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

I don't know why you choose not to eat halal meat. If it's because you've been led to believe that it is a barbaric method of killing, you should be avoiding most meat from UK abattoirs because most of them use exactly the same methods as halal.

People are free to make their own choices in these things. But if they justify them by repeating racist propaganda, then I'll pull them up on it.

 

[8ball]

What I did say was that characterising halal/kosher killing as 'bleeding to death' is a racist trope. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

Do you mean inaccurate because even though the bleeding happens, the cut to the carotid artery finishes consciousness very quickly?

 

[Pickman's model]

What I did say was that characterising halal/kosher killing as 'bleeding to death' is a racist trope. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

how do you suggest they die? do they die from the stunning? or do they die from the bleeding to death?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you should be avoiding most meat from UK abattoirs because most of them use exactly the same methods as halal.

.

This is not true. All non-ritual slaughterhouses stun the animal first. Some ritual slaughterhouses do not. And despite what you said earlier, you cannot know whether or not the animal was stunned when you buy halal/kosher meat. If the meat is imported, it is quite possible that the butchers you're buying it from won't know themselves.

It is not racist to question the exception to the law that is granted religious slaughterhouses. And you've peddled one or two falsehoods yourself, such as the incorrect assertion that halal slaughter kills instantly.

 

[danny la rouge]

This one, danny?


I never said she was racist for not eating halal food. I wouldn't expect anyone with a different religious belief to be comfortable with it. Some are, some are not. Many Jews and Muslims regard halal and kosher as reasonable substitutes for each other because the rules are basically the same, although kosher has more rules that might prevent some more religious Jews from eating halal meat.

What I did say was that characterising halal/kosher killing as 'bleeding to death' is a racist trope. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

I don't know why you choose not to eat halal meat. If it's because you've been led to believe that it is a barbaric method of killing, you should be avoiding most meat from UK abattoirs because most of them use exactly the same methods as halal.

People are free to make their own choices in these things. But if they justify them by repeating racist propaganda, then I'll pull them up on it.

Yes, that one. But you didn't answer the question. I'll break it into parts.

Here it is:

Part 1. Spymaster's wife is Sikh. Her belief is that ritual slaughter is forbidden. Her belief is that meat which violates the principle of "Jhatka" is forbidden. Would it be racist to say her views on this were absurd?

Part 2. She believes that Halal and Kosher meat violates Jhatka, because she believes that Halal and Kosher slaughter both violate the principle of minimal suffering. Is it racist for her to believe that?

Part 3. I refuse to eat Halal and Kosher meat. I do so on animal welfare grounds. In fact, were I to open a restaurant or cafe, I would refuse to serve Halal or Kosher meat. Is that racist of me?

 

[ymu]

Do you mean inaccurate because even though the bleeding happens, the cut to the carotid artery finishes consciousness very quickly?

Not just unconsciousness. They die very quickly - the bleeding is post-mortem, and necessary to make the meat edible. And most halal meat is stunned before the throat is cut. Which means it the slaughter method is precisely the same as used in most UK abattoirs. It is used in most UK abattoirs because it is considered the most humane method of slaughter.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, that one. But you didn't answer the question. I'll break it into parts.

Here it is:

Part 1. Spymaster's wife is Sikh. Her belief is that ritual slaughter is forbidden. Her belief is that meat which violates the principle of "Jhatka" is forbidden. Would it be racist to say her views on this were absurd?

Part 2. She believes that Halal and Kosher meat violates Jhatka, because she believes that Halal and Kosher slaughter both violate the principle of minimal suffering. Is it racist for her to believe that?

Part 3. I refuse to eat Halal and Kosher meat. I do so on animal welfare grounds. In fact, were I to open a restaurant or cafe, I would refuse to serve Halal or Kosher meat. Is that racist of me?

Part 4: What the fuck did you intend with this:

No idea why you think Sikhs can't hold racist attitudes towards Muslims either.

 

[8ball]

Not just unconsciousness. They die very quickly - the bleeding is post-mortem, and necessary to make the meat edible. And most halal meat is stunned before the throat is cut. Which means it the slaughter method is precisely the same as used in most UK abattoirs. It is used in most UK abattoirs because it is considered the most humane method of slaughter.

Yes, I think people are mostly focused on the small proportion where stunning is not used. Though I didn't realise so much of halal slaughter involved stunning (the RSPCA thing said something about some people not agreeing it was properly halal if it had been stunned, but I guess there must be general consensus that stunning is ok).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not just unconsciousness. They die very quickly - the bleeding is post-mortem, and necessary to make the meat edible. And most halal meat is stunned before the throat is cut. Which means it the slaughter method is precisely the same as used in most UK abattoirs. It is used in most UK abattoirs because it is considered the most humane method of slaughter.

You're dodging the issue again. Most is, some isn't, and there is no way to know which is which as a consumer in a shop or restaurant. The exception to the law is granted on religious grounds - non-halal/kosher slaughterhouses would be breaking the law if they did not stun the animals first.

I for one question this specific religious exception. I for one think it is wrong and that all slaughterhouses should be compelled by law to stun the animal first - and furthermore, it should be a requirement for all imported meat too. One universal application of a standard of animal welfare. Do you agree? If not, why not?

 

[ymu]

Yes, that one. But you didn't answer the question. I'll break it into parts.

Here it is:

Part 1. Spymaster's wife is Sikh. Her belief is that ritual slaughter is forbidden. Her belief is that meat which violates the principle of "Jhatka" is forbidden. Would it be racist to say her views on this were absurd?

Part 2. She believes that Halal and Kosher meat violates Jhatka, because she believes that Halal and Kosher slaughter both violate the principle of minimal suffering. Is it racist for her to believe that?

Part 3. I refuse to eat Halal and Kosher meat. I do so on animal welfare grounds. In fact, were I to open a restaurant or cafe, I would refuse to serve Halal or Kosher meat. Is that racist of me?

Part 1: Yes (given that I regard religious/cultural differences as equivalent to 'race' in most circumstances).

Part 2: Yes and no. In the UK most halal/kosher meat is stunned: blanket condemnation is based on racist propaganda. To be strictly accurate though, Jhatka requires that the animal is killed instantly with a single blow (not sure how that is not a form of ritual slaughter, but never mind), and these are the grounds given for her not eating halal. I presume this means that she avoids most meat in the UK unless it is known to have been killed by a bolt through the head (rarely used in UK abattoirs for animals other than cattle, and not always then). Her husband then chose to add the racist trope. She's a much better thinker than he is, so I'm not ascribing his views to her.

Part 3: I think you've been fooled by racists, and a refusal to serve (stunned) halal/kosher would be racist, albeit unknowingly so.

 

[8ball]

Part 1. Spymaster's wife is Sikh. Her belief is that ritual slaughter is forbidden. Her belief is that meat which violates the principle of "Jhatka" is forbidden. Would it be racist to say her views on this were absurd?

Part 2. She believes that Halal and Kosher meat violates Jhatka, because she believes that Halal and Kosher slaughter both violate the principle of minimal suffering. Is it racist for her to believe that?

Part 3. I refuse to eat Halal and Kosher meat. I do so on animal welfare grounds. In fact, were I to open a restaurant or cafe, I would refuse to serve Halal or Kosher meat. Is that racist of me?

I'd go with 'no, no and hmmm'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not just unconsciousness. They die very quickly - the bleeding is post-mortem, and necessary to make the meat edible. And most halal meat is stunned before the throat is cut. Which means it the slaughter method is precisely the same as used in most UK abattoirs. It is used in most UK abattoirs because it is considered the most humane method of slaughter.

Fyi: bleeding stops when life is extinct as the pump - the heart - has stopped.

 

[danny la rouge]

Part 1: Yes (given that I regard religious/cultural differences as equivalent to 'race' in most circumstances).

Part 2: Yes and no. In the UK most halal/kosher meat is stunned: blanket condemnation is based on racist propaganda. To be strictly accurate though, Jhatka requires that the animal is killed instantly with a single blow (not sure how that is not a form of ritual slaughter, but never mind), and these are the grounds given for her not eating halal. I presume this means that she avoids most meat in the UK unless it is known to have been killed by a bolt through the head (rarely used in UK abattoirs for animals other than cattle, and not always then). Her husband then chose to add the racist trope. She's a much better thinker than he is, so I'm not ascribing his views to her.

Part 3: I think you've been fooled by racists, and a refusal to serve (stunned) halal/kosher would be racist, albeit unknowingly so.

I'm in a bit of a hurry as I have to go out, but I disagree with all your replies. I'm sure Spymaster will continue on 1 and 2 in the time being.

But on 3, can I clarify: I'm not racist that I refuse to eat Halal or Kosher meat, but I'm "fooled by racists". Does that apply to all who refuse to eat Halal and Kosher meat and meat products on welfare grounds?

And point 2, does that apply to all restaurants and cafes which refuse to serve Halal or Kosher meat?

 

[8ball]

Fyi: bleeding stops when life is extinct as the pump - the heart - has stopped.

Not when you hang them up by one end - it all drains out for a while after the heart stops.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Part 1: Yes (given that I regard religious/cultural differences as equivalent to 'race' in most circumstances).

Here is a big problem, I think. You brand as 'racist' opinions about religious beliefs. One is not allowed to say a particular belief is absurd because it is a 'protected' belief. Religious beliefs are not to be subject to the same level of scrutiny as other kinds of beliefs.


Hmmm.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not when you hang them up by one end - it all drains out for a while after the heart stops.

as your post indicates, the process to which you refer is draining, bleeding only occurring while life survives.

 

[Spymaster]

To be strictly accurate though, Jhatka requires that the animal is killed instantly with a single blow, and these are the grounds given for her not eating halal. I presume this means that she avoids most meat in the UK unless it is known to have been killed by a bolt through the head (rarely used in UK abattoirs for animals other than cattle, and not always then).

Just to clear this up, don't think you've been clever here.

1) Jhatka slaughtered meat is readily available in certain places. If Kris is going to eat it we get it from butchers in Southall. It hasn't always been readily available and Sikh clerics decreed that the principle of minimal suffering to the animal was more important than the actual method of slaughter. Therefore Sikh's could eat any meat that they were satisfied abided by this principle, to the specific exclusion of kuttha meat (ritualistically slaughtered), which they believe certainly does not.

As a result the wife only eats meat that is either Jhatka or that she is satisfied is produced with the highest standards of animal welfare. This means she rarely eats meat. Which of course makes her a racist.

2)

(not sure how that is not a form of ritual slaughter, but never mind)

This is a joke, right?

3)

Her husband then chose to add the racist trope.

You really are a moron.

4)

No idea why you think Sikhs can't hold racist attitudes towards Muslims either.

Still avoiding this, you fucking toad?

 

[purenarcotic]

Part 3: I think you've been fooled by racists, and a refusal to serve (stunned) halal/kosher would be racist, albeit unknowingly so.

Bull fucking shit. I would NEVER serve somebody kosher meat if they had a problem with it. Ever. What I choose (or do not choose, I don't keep strictly kosher at all tbh) to eat is my choice and thus, it is other people's choice too. I wouldn't force a veggie to eat meat and I would prepare their meal with different utensils. Likewise, I wouldn't make somebody who ate kosher eat non kosher meat, nor would I make somebody who has a problem with it eat it. Some of my quite religious Christian friends would have a problem eating kosher produce because the blessing said over it is not of their faith. That's fine by me, they don't have to eat it, they're not being anti-Semitic as a consequence ffs.

Race has nothing to do with it. Just because you see race and religion as the same thing doesn't mean the rest of us do. Judaism perceived as a race has been half our fucking problem to be perfectly frank.

 

[8ball]

as your post indicates, the process to which you refer is draining, bleeding only occurring while life survives.

Hmm, ok, if you're not defining that as 'bleeding' then that's fair enough (though the word isn't as semantically clear as that).

And by that definition it's also fair of ymu to say the animals do not bleed to death in halal slaughter.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hmm, ok, if you're not defining that as 'bleeding' then that's fair enough (though the word isn't as semantically clear as that).

And by that definition it's also fair of ymu to say the animals do not bleed to death in halal slaughter.

That being the case how do the animals die? You cut someone's throat, they bleed out. Simples, as they say.

 

[Spymaster]

And by that definition it's also fair of ymu to say the animals do not bleed to death in halal slaughter.

No. It's not.

 

[8ball]

That being the case how do the animals die? You cut someone's throat, they bleed out. Simples, as they say.

No - they cut the carotid artery which disrupts blood flow to the brain. No oxygen to the brain, death results. 'Bleeding out' involves death due to a reduction in blood pressure, not a disruption in flow. You just cut the jugular, they bleed out.

 

[Pickman's model]

No - they cut the carotid artery which disrupts blood flow to the brain. No oxygen to the brain, death results. 'Bleeding out' involves death due to a reduction in blood pressure, not a disruption in flow. You just cut the jugular, they bleed out.

It takes about four minutes without oxygen before brain death occurs. What is happening in those four minutes?

 

[Pickman's model]

According to wikipedia dhabiha, the muslim method of slaughter, involves severing the carotid artery, the windpipe and the jugular vein. How did you say the animal died?

 

[ymu]

Part 4: What the fuck did you intend with this:

I couldn't see why else you thought your wife's religion was relevant to your argument. You say your wife only eats Jhatka meat because she is Sikh. That means she can't eat most of the meat produced in the UK, regardless of whether it is labelled halal/kosher. So, that part of your post is pointless, unless you were relying on a subtext of "brown people aren't racist towards brown people". I had said nothing about people not eating it on religious grounds, only those who object to it existing on racist grounds.

 

[frogwoman]

Bull fucking shit. I would NEVER serve somebody kosher meat if they had a problem with it. Ever. What I choose (or do not choose, I don't keep strictly kosher at all tbh) to eat is my choice and thus, it is other people's choice too. I wouldn't force a veggie to eat meat and I would prepare their meal with different utensils. Likewise, I wouldn't make somebody who ate kosher eat non kosher meat, nor would I make somebody who has a problem with it eat it. Some of my quite religious Christian friends would have a problem eating kosher produce because the blessing said over it is not of their faith. That's fine by me, they don't have to eat it, they're not being anti-Semitic as a consequence ffs.

Race has nothing to do with it. Just because you see race and religion as the same thing doesn't mean the rest of us do. Judaism perceived as a race has been half our fucking problem to be perfectly frank.

good post.

 

[8ball]

It takes about four minutes without oxygen before brain death occurs. What is happening in those four minutes?

Perhaps the slaughterman has popped out for a fag so I suppose the animal must have died of lung cancer...

 

[SpineyNorman]

Just to clear this up, don't think you've been clever here.

1) Jhatka slaughtered meat is readily available in certain places. If Kris is going to eat it we get it from butchers in Southall. It hasn't always been readily available and Sikh clerics decreed that the principle of minimal suffering to the animal was more important than the actual method of slaughter. Therefore Sikh's could eat any meat that they were satisfied abided by this principle, to the specific exclusion of kuttha meat (ritualistically slaughtered), which they believe certainly does not.

As a result the wife only eats meat that is either Jhatka or that she is satisfied is produced with the highest standards of animal welfare. This means she rarely eats meat. Which of course makes her a racist.

2)


This is a joke, right?

3)


You really are a moron.

4)


Still avoiding this, you fucking toad?

Bit off topic but then again so is most of the rest of the thread so I'll ask anyway. Do you know if it's it common for Sikhs to take the principle of minimal suffering even further and become vegetarians? Only as far as I can remember all the sikhs I've known have been vegetarians. Or could it just be that it's harder to get the right meat up here where there isn't a big sikh community with its own butchers etc.?

 

[ymu]

I'm in a bit of a hurry as I have to go out, but I disagree with all your replies. I'm sure Spymaster will continue on 1 and 2 in the time being.

But on 3, can I clarify: I'm not racist that I refuse to eat Halal or Kosher meat, but I'm "fooled by racists". Does that apply to all who refuse to eat Halal and Kosher meat and meat products on welfare grounds?

And point 2, does that apply to all restaurants and cafes which refuse to serve Halal or Kosher meat?

If you're rejecting it on welfare grounds, then you have to reject virtually all meat slaughtered in the UK. If that is your position, then you are an animal rights enthusiast, not a racist. If it not, then you have been misled by racists (given that I don't believe you are a racist yourself).

Not sure what you mean by 'point 2'. Does what apply to them? Anyone has the right to not eat/serve halal/kosher meat. Whether it is racist or not depends on their justification for it, and their consistency in applying the same principles to other meat which has been killed in exactly the same way.