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Racist Jamboree, Y'all Come Down!

I couldn't give a shit. When slaves revolt against their tormentors they say terrible things. That shouldn't stop anyone with an ounce of humanity realising who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed in any situation.

And as I say, of Israel and Hamas only one of them has actually murdered, raped and expelled 750,000 people from their homes. Only one of them keeps the other in a ghetto and steals their land and their water and kills them on a daily basis.

Get real. You're out of touch with the sophistication of the audience you bombard with your garbage.

i would not like this to seem simplistic, as i recognise the complexity, but spion the reason so many arabs ended up being expelled or leaving israel in 48/49 was becuase a previous generation of arab politicians tried and failed to destroy the creation of israel indeed to drive the jews into the sea ..

do not get me wrong i believe that the creation of a jewish state as opposed to a multi ethnic community in palestine was doomed, a mistake which jews will suffer from for years to come and indeed the attitudes of the mirror image arab politicians condemn also the ordinary palestinian but to condemn israel is merely to condemn a victor without adequately acknowledging the mistakes on all sides ..
 
That's total and utter codswallop, durutti. It is clear that your knowledge of the Middle East is, shall we say, informed by a particular school of thought that paints the Arabs as inherently evil. In many respects, this is a form of Crusaderist thought given some sort of 'leftist' inflection. Well done.
 
i would not like this to seem simplistic, as i recognise the complexity, but spion the reason so many arabs ended up being expelled or leaving israel in 48/49 was becuase a previous generation of arab politicians tried and failed to destroy the creation of israel indeed to drive the jews into the sea ..
That's a fascinating characterisation, marred only by it's inaccuracies. I especially like the concept of "Arab politicians", by the way. I recommend you do a bit of research into exactly who had their fingers on which buttons and in which pies.
 
but spion the reason so many arabs ended up being expelled or leaving israel in 48/49 was becuase a previous generation of arab politicians tried and failed to destroy the creation of israel indeed to drive the jews into the sea ..
I'd like to see a single shred of evidence for that latter claim. Of course, there were attempts to stop the setting up of a jewish state, and rightly so - the populations were far too intermixed for an ethnically exclusive state to come about without bloodshed and ethnic cleansing, and it was in a region in which people had been trying to become independent for decades.

On the Zionists' part it was a conscious act of carving out Arab-free space for themselves. The idea of 'transferring' Arabs from Palestine had long existed
 
Durruti: Why do you think a multi-ethnic state is needed? There are how many Arab States? 32? Plus the PA!? 56 other Islamic Nations? Why can't the Jews, a tiny People, have a tiny portion of what was already a tiny land and their land to boot?

The Zionists never denied Arabs a state of their own. Both sat down in 1919 and an agreement was offered where 74% of the total land was offered to the Arabs. Jews agreed!!! Nothing has changed in all that time except that with each succeeding generation and ensuing offer the Arab lot has grown a bit smaller, and that is their fault through bad choices...not the fault of nefarious Zionists.

Belushi: Well Carter really is turning out to be a monster, whether you were joking or not. To defend unequivocally a group that proudly tells the world that their Charter will not be changed, a paper that states that all Jews should die, is akin to pandering for the Nazis. Carter can go rebuild homes blown down by bayou hurricanes all he wishes but he is still a racist peanut farmer in statesman's clothes. Best thing to come out of that family was Billy Beer and even that sucked.

If you say you stand for peace, then stand for it. It is not selective. Peace is not something that one side deserves more than the other, it is a universal ideal. True, you can if you choose try to deal with the entity blocking peace, but even in his ho hokum book he admits that Israel is a free and democratic state and then makes his "case" about Arabs of the so called "Territories."

Seems to me, with personalities like Mugabe, places like Tibet, he could spread some of his down home self righteousness around. He might start by adding a chapter to his book talking about how he came to realise that injustice could not stand when he was the president of his family Baptsist Church and blacks were not allowed to worship. I think that would be a fine start. Instead he cries about checkpoints when he is in no danger of getting a Qassam III through the ceiling of his farmhouse. Seems a bit off kilter by my bearings.
 
Spion: "Spion would like to see a shred of evidence that shows a generation of Arab leaders contributed to the Arab "exodus" of 48/49."

Come now Spion....3 times already I have given you no less than 30 examples in each post of that very thing. You have never responded of course except to make the same trite narrow comments. Arab leaders sold them out, this is a fact. Not only do you get the number of Refugees wrong by half, but you then place all the blame on Zionists. That is insane.

You also seem fixated on Hafia City which is opne of the places that is most indicative of what I am talking about. Read Glubb Pasha if you are bored but please stop recycling this nonsense.

"Carving an Arab free space...": WHAT? that is just pure and utter nonsense. Noone was a fool. All the early Zionist Leaders knew and accepted that they would have an Arab minority within their borders . There was indeed a problem in figuring out how to try and deal with such a minority. Would they be a 5th Column? Would they be delegated second hand status without the nation meaning it?

You point to mistranslated pieces in a language you do not even faintly understand and say ,"See? Look!!!! Here, I told you!." Nope, no good.


al Nakhba is a complex event with a complex cause and effect. You cannot pigeonhole it into your narrow ideology. The proof exists, you choose to ignore it, that is your thjing and more power to you but please do not belittle others as they do search for the actual truth.
 
Durruti: Why do you think a multi-ethnic state is needed? There are how many Arab States? 32? Plus the PA!? 56 other Islamic Nations? Why can't the Jews, a tiny People, have a tiny portion of what was already a tiny land and their land to boot?

The Zionists never denied Arabs a state of their own. Both sat down in 1919 and an agreement was offered where 74% of the total land was offered to the Arabs. Jews agreed!!! Nothing has changed in all that time except that with each succeeding generation and ensuing offer the Arab lot has grown a bit smaller, and that is their fault through bad choices...not the fault of nefarious Zionists.

Belushi: Well Carter really is turning out to be a monster, whether you were joking or not. To defend unequivocally a group that proudly tells the world that their Charter will not be changed, a paper that states that all Jews should die, is akin to pandering for the Nazis. Carter can go rebuild homes blown down by bayou hurricanes all he wishes but he is still a racist peanut farmer in statesman's clothes. Best thing to come out of that family was Billy Beer and even that sucked.

If you say you stand for peace, then stand for it. It is not selective. Peace is not something that one side deserves more than the other, it is a universal ideal. True, you can if you choose try to deal with the entity blocking peace, but even in his ho hokum book he admits that Israel is a free and democratic state and then makes his "case" about Arabs of the so called "Territories."

Seems to me, with personalities like Mugabe, places like Tibet, he could spread some of his down home self righteousness around. He might start by adding a chapter to his book talking about how he came to realise that injustice could not stand when he was the president of his family Baptsist Church and blacks were not allowed to worship. I think that would be a fine start. Instead he cries about checkpoints when he is in no danger of getting a Qassam III through the ceiling of his farmhouse. Seems a bit off kilter by my bearings.

rach it does not matter what you call people .. if someone has lived in an area for one and in this case usually many generations why should they leave? why should one deserving group say they want the whole thing? it can't and indeed the evidence shows absolutly, work .. simple as
 
I'd like to see a single shred of evidence for that latter claim. Of course, there were attempts to stop the setting up of a jewish state, and rightly so - the populations were far too intermixed for an ethnically exclusive state to come about without bloodshed and ethnic cleansing, and it was in a region in which people had been trying to become independent for decades.

On the Zionists' part it was a conscious act of carving out Arab-free space for themselves. The idea of 'transferring' Arabs from Palestine had long existed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
 
Spion: "Spion would like to see a shred of evidence that shows a generation of Arab leaders contributed to the Arab "exodus" of 48/49."

Come now Spion....3 times already I have given you no less than 30 examples in each post of that very thing. You have never responded of course except to make the same trite narrow comments.
30 examples? Haha :D The number keeps going up all the time. You're such a BS-er

OK, if you're so overflowing with evidence please post the text of any Arab instruction to the Palestinians to leave the country. If it exists - which is doesn't (except for one or two very localised examples) - it'd be in radio monitoring transcripts or newpapers.
 
Durruti: You are missing the point. Neither I nor most early Zionists wanted anyone to leave. In most of the sourcesd I provided for Spion, Zionist leaders made this abundantly clear. In one case after the violence in Hafia, iniated by Arabs of the Jordanian Legion, Golda Meir the future PM came to Hafia to beg and cajole local Arab leaders to try and convince their people to stay put in Hafia and help build the new nation.


Spion: You are asking me agaiun for Arabs asking their people to leave in 48? I WILL DO IT THIS LAST TIME. I want all to witness this because I can guarantee in a couple of weeks you will again be whining about it never happened.I will start in a following post.
 
First, Spion, in that new book by Morris he takes time to make this same point and we all know how much you love Morris so you really should buy that book. In the meantime, here is some good reading material...

Arab sources on how Arabs cajoled, begged, scared with spurious propaganda, bribed, and forced by gunpoint their own demogrpahic to evacuate the land now alternatively known as Israel abd "Palestine.":


I) Janurary 21st,1948, the Arab Higher Committee asks neighbouring Arab Nations to desist in issuing visas to "Palestinians" since so many were flooding the borders trying to flee.

II) On 1/30/48 "Ash Sha'ab," a Yaffa (called Jaffa by Arabs) periodical said the folloowing in a printed article, and this is translated into English: "The first of our own fifth column consists of those who abandon their homes and businesses and go to live elsewhere...At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of the struggle."

III) On 3/30/48 another Yaffa periodical "As Sarih' " offered in an article translated here: "Arab villagers near Tel Aviv are bromgomg down disgrace on us by abandoning the villages."

IV)In the English periodical, no translating needed there, London Daily Mail on 8/12/48 in an interview with Sir John Baggot Glubb,aka Pasha Glubb who was to lead the Jordanian Army despite being British: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war."

V) The Arab National Committee in Hafia, a city Spion finds himnself enthralled with, had its Chairman Hajj Nimer al Khatib wrote the following memo to the HQ of the Higher Community as well as the Arab League, translated for your benefit for the Arab deficient Spion: "(Of Arab Soldiers) They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value and the honour of our women was defiled. This state of afairs led many Arab residents to leave the city under protection of British tanks."


VI) Well known "Palestinian" terrorist and acolyte of the late Dr. George Habash, Leila Khaled a native of Hafia and certainly no lover of either Jews or Zionists has the following to say about Hafia: "The Zionists were able to snatch Hafia (my home) out from under us, prticularly after Sir John Glubb asha, the Commander of the Arab League of Jordan, ordered his Jordanian Regiment to withdraw in agreement with British plans to evacuate Hafia and ensure Jewish victory

VII) Now I can almost see Spion right now with baited breath raring to type away and say, "Rachamim that is now what you promised! You said you would provide Arabs forcing Arabs to leave." Well Spion I have provided that but let us take it even further....


"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has ended." Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said (NOTICE HIS SECOND SENTENCE).

VIII)The Lebanese Arabic periodical "al Hoda" in an article and interview on 6/8/51 about the Arab League General Secretary Azzam Pasha. "He (Azzam Pasha) pointed out that they were already on the fronteirs and that all the millions othe Jews had spent on land and economic development wouls be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Medittarranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, their homes, and property to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states , lest the guns of the invading Arab Armies mow them down."

IX) Or let us look at the words of Arab League London Secretary Edward Atiyah who wrote the following in English, in a book ("The Arabs" pp183) in 1955: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic Press and the irresponsible utterings of some of the Arab leaders that it could only be a mtter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake posession of their country."

X) Or the memoirs of the then (1948/49) Syrian PM Haled al 'Azm in "The Memoirs of Haled al 'Azm" (Beirut, 1973, pp 386-387):"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return (sic)."

I said 30, but this 10 strongly solid, any reasonable person will accept them. I am tired of posting the same info over and over. Either dispute each source or stop whining asbout the issue. Nothing wrong Spion when you are incorrect.
 
What I asked you for was the actual words used at the time by Arab leaders which you claim was the reason hundreds of thousands of Arabs left their homes. You've failed. Historians had by 1959 found out that there wasn't a shred of evidence for the 'Arab orders' idea by going through the newspaper and radio transcript evidence from 1948.

The only evidence found was of Zionist 'encouragement' to leave and Arab insistence on Palestinians not doing so

So, YOU HAVE FAILED AGAIN to provide a single contemporaneous source showing these so-called Arab orders, but let's look at what you have provided.

I) Janurary 21st,1948, the Arab Higher Committee asks neighbouring Arab Nations to desist in issuing visas to "Palestinians" since so many were flooding the borders trying to flee.
IE, Arab states try to stop Palestinians leaving their country. Thanks. That's evidence for my case

II) On 1/30/48 "Ash Sha'ab," a Yaffa (called Jaffa by Arabs) periodical said the folloowing in a printed article, and this is translated into English: "The first of our own fifth column consists of those who abandon their homes and businesses and go to live elsewhere...At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of the struggle.".
Same again. Palestinians fleeing are castigated for doing so by a Jaffa Arab newspaper. Once again, evidence for my case. Thanks

III) On 3/30/48 another Yaffa periodical "As Sarih' " offered in an article translated here: "Arab villagers near Tel Aviv are bromgomg down disgrace on us by abandoning the villages."
Ditto. Thanks again for the evidence in favour of my case

IV)In the English periodical, no translating needed there, London Daily Mail on 8/12/48 in an interview with Sir John Baggot Glubb,aka Pasha Glubb who was to lead the Jordanian Army despite being British: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war."
Once again, evidence for my case. (Do you know WTF you're doing here?) Why did these people abandon their villages? I suggest fear in the face of well-armed and highly organised Zionist militias which had been responsible for numerous massacres and expulsions

V) The Arab National Committee in Hafia, a city Spion finds himnself enthralled with, had its Chairman Hajj Nimer al Khatib wrote the following memo to the HQ of the Higher Community as well as the Arab League, translated for your benefit for the Arab deficient Spion: "(Of Arab Soldiers) They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value and the honour of our women was defiled. This state of afairs led many Arab residents to leave the city under protection of British tanks."
Of absolutely no relevance to whether Arabs ordered the wholesale evacuation of Palestine


VI) Well known "Palestinian" terrorist and acolyte of the late Dr. George Habash, Leila Khaled a native of Hafia and certainly no lover of either Jews or Zionists has the following to say about Hafia: "The Zionists were able to snatch Hafia (my home) out from under us, prticularly after Sir John Glubb asha, the Commander of the Arab League of Jordan, ordered his Jordanian Regiment to withdraw in agreement with British plans to evacuate Hafia and ensure Jewish victory
Again - this is of absolutely no relevance to whether Arabs ordered the wholesale evacuation of Palestine. It does, however, illustrate the treachery of the British who abandoned border points between the Haganah/IZL/LHI and the largely civilian population of Haifa which led their mass expulsion - 30,000 - 50,000 people driven literally into the sea - a few days later. Once again, this is evidence for my case


"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has ended." Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said (NOTICE HIS SECOND SENTENCE).
Hmmm, no date. I suspect it is from May, by which time at least two hundred villages and half a dozen cities had been ethnically cleansed. This proves only the existence of refugees not the reason for the flight

VIII)The Lebanese Arabic periodical "al Hoda" in an article and interview on 6/8/51 about the Arab League General Secretary Azzam Pasha. "He (Azzam Pasha) pointed out that they were already on the fronteirs and that all the millions othe Jews had spent on land and economic development wouls be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Medittarranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, their homes, and property to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states , lest the guns of the invading Arab Armies mow them down."
OK, let's see what this 'brotherly advice' said. Show us one single text reported in radio or newspaper reports encouraging the Arabs of Palestine to leave their homes. Don't worry, I know you can't

IX) Or let us look at the words of Arab League London Secretary Edward Atiyah who wrote the following in English, in a book ("The Arabs" pp183) in 1955: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic Press and the irresponsible utterings of some of the Arab leaders that it could only be a mtter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake posession of their country."
He's just wrong. As your first few examples show, neighbouring Arab states did their best to stop Palestinians fleeing

X) Or the memoirs of the then (1948/49) Syrian PM Haled al 'Azm in "The Memoirs of Haled al 'Azm" (Beirut, 1973, pp 386-387):"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return (sic)."
Ditto

So, there we have it. You cannot supply a single text of any general order to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their country. Bizarrely you actually in your first examples supply sources showing how the Arab states tried to stop the flight.

This is an old argument. In the more enlightened parts of the world this was resolved as long ago as 1959 when Childers and W Khalidi demolished Kimche on 'the myth of Arab flight'. There was no evidence for it then and there certainly isn't now.

You keep saying Chomsky is unqualified to comment because politics is not his field. Your's isn't history, you're a tree trader or something. I am a historian, now lech me po and give this nonsense up. You make yourself look more of a fantasist with every attempt to write on this subject
 
Yes, You asked for "actual words for Arabs encouraging other Arabs to leave." I did so provide exsactly this as well as Arabs recollecting that they were told, at the time they were told, by other Arabs. You can play games night and day but the truth is there whether or not you choose to fixate upon a single half cocked source of propaganda- Israeli Revisonism (Morris, Nachmani, Pappe, and I am surpsised you have not yet resorted to Shahak).

You sit there and play games with numbers I through IV in the sources I have provided, even though you have claimed it was Jews that made all Arab leavew (and THESE sources prove the opposite, of course it is not suprising that you would not let that filter in past your bias) but then comes number V....A memo from the Arab Higher Committee telling ALL ARABS TO LEAVE and you say "so what?" Brillant Spion. So what if they ordred them all out? HELLO! that IS the point being discussed and again, ofor the third time, you have it in your face and refuse to cope with it.

As for the point by Ms. Khaled, you say the same thing," So what if Arabs are told by other Arabs to leave," whioch just happens to be the point we are trying to discuss and then you turn around at the end of that same couple of sentences and say that it proves your point. WHAT? Are you even aware of what you are posting?

I cannot be bothered to play games. You asked for proof, this is the third time I have supplied it in spades but again you have played the ostrich, and have done it well, as usual. So be it. You will stay in fantasy land and anyone really caring about the issue has the facts they need to evaluate that tiny iota of the dynamic.

Ahhhh....But Spion will the think he has proved something. I will end the charade, as I said for others to evaluate as is but with a few other choice pieces:



I)"In the Jordanian daily periodical Filastin article dated 2/19/49: "The Arab States encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab Invasion Aramies."

II)In Jordanian King Abdullah's autobio published in 1978 ("My Memoirs Completed" Longman Group Ltd. 1978 pp26) the late King tells us: "In some cases, like the Jewish center of Safed, the Syrian Commander inexplicably withdrew to Damascus with all his troops. THE AREA ARABS PANICED AND FLED IN THEIR ENTIRETY."

III)The Near Eastern Netwok , a radio network of the late 40s and eraly 50s that covered the Middle East, broadcasting off of Cyprus, broadcast the following on 4/03/49: "It must not be forgotten THAT THE ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE ENCOURAGED THE REFUGEES' FLIGHT FROM THEIR HOMES IN JAFFA, HAFIA, and JERUSALEM." Hmmmmm.


Want more Spion? Naaaaah, only a person who is delusional could p[ossibly need more.

One one hand you have a few Revisonists who write about events they themselves never expereinced, half a century or more after the event although they do soemtimes use "source" material ddated to the time by people noone has never heard of , never the less ever corroborated by a secondhand source...and on the other you have handful after handful of Arabs themselves telling you in theiur own words what happened, most of them at the time in question.
 
What a bunch odf losers. See something wasteful and instead of ingoring it, what do you 4 do? Discuss it....and Nino counting words. Brilliant you Brits. No wonder you have lost everything you had. Keep it up and you'll be possesionless as you always should be. What a sad sham.
 
What a bunch odf losers.
See something wasteful and instead of ingoring it, what do you 4 do? Discuss it....and Nino counting words. Brilliant you Brits. No wonder you have lost everything you had. Keep it up and you'll be possesionless as you always should be. What a sad sham.

Hang on...is that you criticising our ad homs and in the same paragraph you do exactly that.
 
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