Purnell: more attacks on the unemployed, etc

[scifisam]

You are just about 100% wrong on all of that. Lots of people the vast majority of people who get IB could work....I would say above 90%.
There is a problem with lack of suitable work....yes.......but that is far from the only or main problem....
It is utterly ridiculous and contemptible to say that the majority of people on IB cant work....

So 90% of people are capable of working in jobs that don't exist?

FWIW, my GF works for a company that teaches other companies how to adapt for employees with disabilities, and encourages them to deal with things like people not being able to work regular hours. But it's simply not possible for all companies in all industries to change enough, and, until changes have been made, then the jobs don't exist. So people on IB can't be blamed for not getting work when the work isn't there.

And it still doesn't solve the problem of companies not adapting for the needs of people with tricky care arrangements, like some lone parents or those caring for their own parents or partners, especially if those care arrangements have put the jobseeker out of the workplace for years.

The onus there is on the employers, but, again, it's still not going to be possible for all companies in all industries to adapt for people like that even if they really want to.

 

[_angel_]

*sighs*

ok sherlock, where does your 90% of IB claimants could work come from, in the context of the current day labour market, rather than some fictitious world of fantasy that doesn't exist outside of your head?

how can you fit 2,340,000 people (90% of the total IB claims) into 600,000 vacancies as currently are claimed to exist? lets start with that.

This is the main point. Are the government so thick as to think millions of people can do jobs numbered in their hundreds of thousands??

Never mind the fact they have been signed off sick by their doctors and we don't know what all these vacancies actually are/ where they're distributed around the country.

But lets not let that get in the way of a good kicking of those on sickness benefits.

 

[trevhagl]

I think Mike Baldwin from Coronation St (thats probably him cos he was a Tory in real life!!) is missing the point. Make jobs worth doing, and anyone who IS 'faking it' will do them. But leave the real disabled alone, and as for those with mental health issues, how are you gonna get them to turn up for work?
This Tory govt let big tax dodgers off the hook left right and centre yet they clamp down on and intimidate people who haven't got a pot to piss in.

 

[trevhagl]

The likes of THE SUN set the agenda and their thick working class readership lap it up. how come no one discusses the royal family? Because they're not TOLD to.
Whats the biggest waste here, £80 to someone on incapacity or £16 million quid on horse maintenence for the queen alone?
Get your priorities right if yer gonna be outraged

 

[Urbanblues]

Has he PMed you a death threat too?

Yes, bless. He puts me in mind of Stewie from 'Family Guy' - a wee lad, with a burning desire to be a big boy.

Don't you just love internet hardmen?

Not sure; never met one - just the usual keyboard gangstas.

 

[_angel_]

The likes of THE SUN set the agenda and their thick working class readership lap it up. how come no one discusses the royal family? Because they're not TOLD to.
Whats the biggest waste here, £80 to someone on incapacity or £16 million quid on horse maintenence for the queen alone?
Get your priorities right if yer gonna be outraged

You forget a lot of the lower middle class pulled-myself-up-by-my-bootstraps brigade going along with this too.

 

[tbaldwin]

*sighs*

ok sherlock, where does your 90% of IB claimants could work come from, in the context of the current day labour market, rather than some fictitious world of fantasy that doesn't exist outside of your head?

how can you fit 2,340,000 people (90% of the total IB claims) into 600,000 vacancies as currently are claimed to exist? lets start with that.

Well Holmes.
If you want to solve the crime of so much wasted potential. You have to first acknowledge there is a problem with writing so many people off as Incapable of work.
If you took 2.3million people on IB who could and would work as your starting point rather than saying Vacancies wot Vacancies....You could then talk about wot could and should be done...

Its utter shit to say that the majority of people on IB cant work. The Tories got loads of people off UB to IB cos it suited them politically to keep unemployment figures down.....

 

[_angel_]

Well Holmes.
If you want to solve the crime of so much wasted potential. You have to first acknowledge there is a problem with writing so many people off as Incapable of work.

How on earth you know better than doctors who have signed someone off sick, I don't know.

If you took 2.3million people on IB who could and would work as your starting point rather than saying Vacancies wot Vacancies....You could then talk about wot could and should be done...

Errrr so you throw them off benefit in full knowledge there aren't enough jobs out there.

Its utter shit to say that the majority of people on IB cant work. The Tories got loads of people off UB to IB cos it suited them politically to keep unemployment figures down.....

That was ages ago now and claiming IB is not as easy as then.

 

[Blagsta]

Is that what you think Blagsta? Really?

It's how you've been coming across on this thread, yes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How on earth you know better than doctors who have signed someone off sick, I don't know.

Because Balders was/is part of the disability industry, and because he claimed IB at one time, believes he has an insight into the issues.

Errrr so you throw them off benefit in full knowledge there aren't enough jobs out there.

Well, he does call himself an "authoritarian socialist", doesn't he?

That was ages ago now and claiming IB is not as easy as then.

This, like many other facts, has passed Balders by.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, bless. He puts me in mind of Stewie from 'Family Guy' - a wee lad, with a burning desire to be a big boy.

He doesn't have as good a vocabulary as Stewie, though. He's more at the Peter level.

Not sure; never met one - just the usual keyboard gangstas.

Whoa, did he threaten to "bust a cap in yo' ass, mutha"?

 

[tbaldwin]

How on earth you know better than doctors who have signed someone off sick, I don't know.



Errrr so you throw them off benefit in full knowledge there aren't enough jobs out there.



That was ages ago now and claiming IB is not as easy as then.

1 Do you really think Doctors are experts on work...Most of them have never had a proper job. A lot of Doctors really do not have a clue.....And relying on them to say who is fit or not fit to work is not really a great idea at all.

2 Did i say that? er no............

3 Maybe. But thats not really part of the arguement is it?

 

[_angel_]

Oh not that shit again. Doctors don't have a proper job, right, yeah, tell that to junior doctors working silly hours.

 

[Fruitloop]

Surely doctors are the traditional authority on who is and isn't sick?

 

[_angel_]

Surely doctors are the traditional authority on who is and isn't sick?

No, baldwin knows better than all of them. Doubtless he's performing heart by passes in his spare time.

 

[tbaldwin]

No, baldwin knows better than all of them. Doubtless he's performing heart by passes in his spare time.

I think your in danger of making my arguement for me Angel....
GPs consultants saying who can and cant work is nonsense isnt it?
Be better if they stuck to what they know rather than got involved in the whole sorry messy IB stuff.
They can say what condition a person has but plenty of people with disabilities,depression and terminal illnesses work...If it was down to lots of Doctors most of them would be rotting away at home.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, baldwin knows better than all of them. Doubtless he's performing heart by passes in his spare time.

He's certainly performed his own arse bypass, he's so full of shit.

 

[Urbanblues]

If you took 2.3million people on IB who could and would work as your starting point rather than saying Vacancies wot Vacancies....

That’d be everyone on IB. Therefore, you are categorically stating that every single disabled person on IB is capable of working. You are not making any provision for those people who consultants have warned that working could kill them; or, that working could make their conditions irreversibly worse. Yours is a black and white solution; if you breathe and claim IB, you’re fit for work.

You could then talk about wot could and should be done...

You’re an advocate of the run before you can walk school of thinking, aren’t you. If you were a town planner you’d build the houses first; then worry about roads, links to utilities, shops, schools, GPs surgeries, libraries, public transport etc – if indeed, you even felt a need for such tiresome infrastructural excess or basic amenities.

But then, this is how government has operated in this country for decades – why change winning ways. Telling us they’re serious about lifting disabled people from poverty and social exclusion is different to putting in place the means and infrastructure to carry out such a gargantuan task. Are they opening more job centres; employing more DEAs; putting more money into Access to Work; making it more difficult for employers to discriminate against disabled job seekers; encouraging organisations such as Remploy to open more factories.

No, they’re doing none of these things. They’re closing job centres; they’re moving staff from redundant job centres to existing ones – hardly an environment for employing more DEAs; they’re excluding whole government departments from AtoW – with the view to withdrawing it from the whole of the public sector (this can only mean the private sector will follow); they’ve not toughened the DDA in any meaningful way to deter employers from discriminating against disabled people – especially at the recruitment stage; they’ve rubberstamped the closure of 30 Remploy factories, adding another 2,500 to the 2.3 million they want back to work; and, they’re going to phase out all local authority supported employment schemes.

All this as we enter a recession. Are these the actions of a government serious about helping disabled people?

 

[audiotech]

I think your in danger of making my arguement for me Angel....
GPs consultants saying who can and cant work is nonsense isnt it?
Be better if they stuck to what they know rather than got involved in the whole sorry messy IB stuff.

Having experienced a social services tribunal some time ago, I realised a GP has more knowledge of whether someone is fit for work compared to the local businessman, trade unionist representative and bureaucrat who made judgement on my particular case.

 

[trevhagl]

Urban Blues got it spot on.

But does Baldwin REALLY call himself a socialist? How can you have Tory views and be a socialist?

 

[The Black Hand]

Urban Blues got it spot on.

But does Baldwin REALLY call himself a socialist? How can you have Tory views and be a socialist?

Baldwin, you should take note of trevhagl who is the independent voice of the working class north east

 

[Urbanblues]

GPs consultants saying who can and cant work is nonsense isnt it?

GPs consultants saying who can and cant work is nonsense isnt it?

My GP and consultants have never said I can’t work. However, their opinions are that my condition is chronic, and so variable that it would be difficult for me to hold down a job. So, how is taking advice from a GP or consultant nonsense?

 

[_angel_]

I think your in danger of making my arguement for me Angel....
GPs consultants saying who can and cant work is nonsense isnt it?
Be better if they stuck to what they know rather than got involved in the whole sorry messy IB stuff.
They can say what condition a person has but plenty of people with disabilities,depression and terminal illnesses work...If it was down to lots of Doctors most of them would be rotting away at home.

Um medical conditions is what they know. Who else should IB claimants be referred to regarding their illnesses/ conditions if not a doctor?

Oh yeah, maybe someone who doesn't know the first thing about them or their health conditions ...

 

[shagnasty]

1 Do you really think Doctors are experts on work...Most of them have never had a proper job. A lot of Doctors really do not have a clue.....And relying on them to say who is fit or not fit to work is not really a great idea at all.

2 Did i say that? er no............

3 Maybe. But thats not really part of the arguement is it?

To start insulting our doctors is insidious and reprehensible you should be ashamed

 

[Urbanblues]

Um medical conditions is what they know. Who else should IB claimants be referred to regarding their illnesses/ conditions if not a doctor?

Oh yeah, maybe someone who doesn't know the first thing about them or their health conditions ...

When the DWP rolls out its plan to examine existing IB recipients in October next year, they will be using non-medically qualified personnel from the private sector to assess disabled people.

Creaming your knickers balders?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

When the DWP rolls out its plan to examine existing IB recipients in October next year, they will be using non-medically qualified personnel from the private sector to assess disabled people.

Creaming your knickers balders?

That isn't strictly true. Its under-25 y/o existing claimants from next year, with plans for all claimants from 2010. The people carrying out the medical examinations will be health-care professionals, rather than only GPs, a change that has already been instigated. A health care professional means:

1. a registered medical practitioner;
2. a registered nurse; or
3. an occupational therapist or physiotherapist registered with a regulatory body established by an Order in Council under section 60 of the Health Act 1999.

so they will need to be medically qualified to some degree. All medical examination functions have been contracted out for a number of years to Atos-Origin, a global multinational corporation with annual revenues of EUR 5.4 billion.

The private sector will also be carrying out the 5 work-focussed interviews following the first work-focussed interview, which should be carried out by Jobcentre Plus. Decisions regards capacity for work and/or capacity for work-related activity will remain with Jobcentre Plus, but there will obvious pressure for private companies to push for penalties for perceived non-compliance with the interviews, given their financial incentives to place people into work in order that the company can secure their payment by result.

 

[Urbanblues]

That isn't strictly true. Its under-25 y/o existing claimants from next year, with plans for all claimants from 2010. The people carrying out the medical examinations will be health-care professionals, rather than only GPs, a change that has already been instigated. A health care professional means:

1. a registered medical practitioner;
2. a registered nurse; or
3. an occupational therapist or physiotherapist registered with a regulatory body established by an Order in Council under section 60 of the Health Act 1999.

so they will need to be medically qualified to some degree. All medical examination functions have been contracted out for a number of years to Atos-Origin, a global multinational corporation with annual revenues of EUR 5.4 billion.

The private sector will also be carrying out the 5 work-focussed interviews following the first work-focussed interview, which should be carried out by Jobcentre Plus. Decisions regards capacity for work and/or capacity for work-related activity will remain with Jobcentre Plus, but there will obvious pressure for private companies to push for penalties for perceived non-compliance with the interviews, given their financial incentives to place people into work in order that the company can secure their payment by result.

'Isn't strictly true' - you're being a bit generous there Paulie. I'd say I'd crossed the line; and, my statement was bollocks.

But then I would - as, I'm honest; without conceit; have the ego the size of a shrunken pea; and, there are always at least two people in the room when I have sex.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

'Isn't strictly true' - you're being a bit generous there Paulie. I'd say I'd crossed the line; and, my statement was bollocks.

But then I would - as, I'm honest; without conceit; have the ego the size of a shrunken pea; and, there are always at least two people in the room when I have sex.

I more concerned that i'm still talking shop at 11 at night tbh....so am off to bed now, sleep tight

 

[Urbanblues]

I more concerned that i'm still talking shop at 11 at night tbh....so am off to bed now, sleep tight

Can't sleep myself. Goodnight.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Urban Blues got it spot on.

But does Baldwin REALLY call himself a socialist?

He does.

How can you have Tory views and be a socialist?

I've been asking him that for over 4 years, and he hasn't yet provided any answer that makes sense.