Purnell: more attacks on the unemployed, etc

[Fullyplumped]

what a lot of sophistry, what you are basically describing is a return to the undeserving poor, people are very complex beings and to assume they are all trying to avoid work , upskilling, etc is lazy thinking and also disingenuous.

No I'm not saying that and I'm not assuming that.

This is about basic skills and what it is reasonable for society which supports them to ask people without basic skills to do in order to overcome the barriers that lack of these skills present.

I think people who need to learn to read and write and count and speak English should do so, and if they are claiming working-age benefits it is reasonable for there to be a condition of receiving these benefits that they do something about acquiring these skills.

That's all.

I am not saying that anyone is trying to avoid work or upskilling. I do think it is bizarre that you and others see the requirement that people learn to read and write as being a horrible burden.

Anyway everyone reading this thread can read and write, unless they are using screen reading technology. You can read and write and it surely adds hugely to your quality of life. Why campaign against other adults getting the same chance you have?

And chucking around slogans like "neo-liberal agenda" doesn't make your case any more convincing. Don't forget, you're the one that started this thread because you thought a new insurance product in the UK market was a sign of a neo-liberal move by a Canadian government entity (I don't know whether welfare and employability is a Federal or Provincial function in Canada).

Do you think people benefiting from welfare have any mutual responsibilities to the society in which they live and which provides them with support? If so, then we agree about the essentials and are disagreeing only about the detail.

 

[Urbanblues]

I've certainly heard what i took to be genuine commitments from James Purnell re: A2W. He was blunt that spending is limited to ~£200million but i haven't heard anything about privatisation as such. Although much welfare reform certainly appears to be going in that direction. Apparently the Treasury still aren't convinced on the spend £1 and make £1.50 argument, thus they won't release funds. So that is where attention should be concentrated imo.

Paulie, the government is either serious about helping those disabled people capable of working , or it is simply paying lip service. My money’s on the latter. They’re not serious enough to make the DDA a blunt instrument with which to bash discriminating employers over the head with; scrapping AtoW from the entire Public Sector will only serve to close that avenue of employment to hundreds of thousands of would-be disabled workers.

Public Services HR departments will begin to adopt the same discriminatory practices once their department’s budgets begin to feel the pinch of special equipment and reasonable adjustment costs. The TUC Disability Conference took this seriously enough three weeks ago to adopt the Access to Work Motion as their Motion to Congress in the autumn.

By the way, it was Roger Berry MP who gave me the figure of £1.7 for every £1.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Just to clarify, I am aware that A2W was scrapped in terms of supporting employees working for the public sector, but i haven't heard that A2W provision being 'privatised' as such. The justification for removing A2W from public services was, as i understand it, that the Disability Equality Duty obliges public sector bodies to be proactive in this area, rather than reactive. However, some bare statistical analysis would suggest that the number of disabled employees working in DWP has fallen, both in total and proportionately, which i completely agree is a very bad omen.

Glad to hear that the TUC are taking up the issue seriously.

 

[tbaldwin]

Ok, find me an employer that will accept me only attending work on the days my condition permits; or, rolling in 4 or 5 hours late, unable to give notice; show me the boss that will tolerate me falling asleep during work hours, because chronic pain has kept me awake for two days; me having to use the toilet every 40 minutes or so; point me in the direction of a job that will support me financially for maybe 8 to 12 hours per week – in a good week.

I’ll be around; just PM me when you discover such a position.

There are plenty of jobs like that...Have you ever thought about voluntary work. It may open up the door to some of those jobs?
Your obviously reasonably intelligent, you can use a computer what about a job as a fundraiser or on an advice line for disabled people?

 

[Urbanblues]

There are plenty of jobs like that...Have you ever thought about voluntary work. It may open up the door to some of those jobs?
Your obviously reasonably intelligent, you can use a computer what about a job as a fundraiser or on an advice line for disabled people?

Really? Jobs that would tolerate me coming in as and when I was able – some weeks this could mean no appearance at all. Are you seriously saying such jobs exist; that the employer would pay me my full wage for only working part of the agreed hours, or not at all? Please, point me in the direction of such paid employment – I must reiterate; I can only manage at most 16 hours per week; so, I’d need to paid a minimum of £25 per hour in order to live.

Don’t voluntary organisations have timetables and schedules? Are you proposing my erratic work patterns be foisted on them? My disability won’t think “It’s for charity; let’s make the effort.”

Unless I daydreamed my way through a course on fundraising, I’m not qualified in this field. Then there is the question of voluntary work; I consider the concept of charity anathema – and, most voluntary work centres on charities.

As for working as a disability advisor on a help-line; I am not qualified to give advice professionally; the mood swings and chronic pain I encounter make me prone to mood swings – hardly a qualification for an advisor; and finally, I have a speech impairment which makes me difficult to understand.

 

[tbaldwin]

There are jobs like that UB. If you did some voluntary work and got some experience then maybe you could get one.

 

[_angel_]

There are jobs like that UB. If you did some voluntary work and got some experience then maybe you could get one.

Where? Ones you can work part time for £25 an hour and there'll be no problems if you can't make into work for days on end.



Can you find me one single example of such a job/ firm willing to take someone on under those conditions.

 

[tbaldwin]

Where? Ones you can work part time for £25 an hour and there'll be no problems if you can't make into work for days on end.



Can you find me one single example of such a job/ firm willing to take someone on under those conditions.

Angel are you seriously trying to say....You doubt that Jobs like that exist.....Flippin heck......There will be hundreds of thousands of jobs
like that......

 

[SpookyFrank]

There are jobs like that UB. If you did some voluntary work and got some experience then maybe you could get one.

Voluntary work is wonderful, but it doesn't pay you any money. If you're working full time you won't have much energy left for voluntary work, and if you're claiming JSA they frown upon it as it's time spent not looking for jobs Try to explain to the "people" at the dole office that you're doing voluntary work to gain experience and make yourself more employable and it'll fall on deaf ears. This is because the jobcentre is not there to help you get the job you want, it is there to make you take any old shitty job going so that employers have a steady stream of staff and so are relieved of the obligation to treat any of them like human beings.

The benefit system is not there to help people, it is there to coerce and bully them into doing pointless shit to keep the economy ticking over. Anyone who has claimed JSA in the last few years will be all too aware of this. They'll quite happily cut off your dole and leave you to starve if you don't play by their fucking stupid rules, not something the welfare state is supposed to be about IMHO.

 

[tbaldwin]

Voluntary work is wonderful, but it doesn't pay you any money. If you're working full time you won't have much energy left for voluntary work, and if you're claiming JSA they frown upon it as it's time spent not looking for jobs Try to explain to the "people" at the dole office that you're doing voluntary work to gain experience and make yourself more employable and it'll fall on deaf ears. This is because the jobcentre is not there to help you get the job you want, it is there to make you take any old shitty job going so that employers have a steady stream of staff and so are relieved of the obligation to treat any of them like human beings.

The benefit system is not there to help people, it is there to coerce and bully them into doing pointless shit to keep the economy ticking over. Anyone who has claimed JSA in the last few years will be all too aware of this. They'll quite happily cut off your dole and leave you to starve if you don't play by their fucking stupid rules, not something the welfare state is supposed to be about IMHO.

Yeah some Job centre staff are a bit shit. But not all are.
Doing voluntary work when your out of work seems preety sensible to me. Though i do think some volunteers get used badly by some charities who have the morals of sewer rats.

 

[Fruitloop]

There should be some equivalent of Godwin's Law for the 'A few bad apples' defence.

 

[_angel_]

Angel are you seriously trying to say....You doubt that Jobs like that exist.....Flippin heck......There will be hundreds of thousands of jobs
like that......

I've never heard of any. Could you supply links please?

Simply being out of the workforce for a while never mind ill health renders you unattractive to an employer.

Being turned down just because I had no childcare over half term from one place.. so I want to know where these fantastic paying pt jobs that don't mind if you have days on end off with chronic health conditions are. Seriously.

I haven't come across them.

 

[tbaldwin]

I've never heard of any. Could you supply links please?

Simply being out of the workforce for a while never mind ill health renders you unattractive to an employer.

Being turned down just because I had no childcare over half term from one place.. so I want to know where these fantastic paying pt jobs that don't mind if you have days on end off with chronic health conditions are. Seriously.

I haven't come across them.

Sorry Angel but if you consider there are 177,000 charities, god knows how many private consultants, fundraisers etc are you seriously trying to say that you still dont think thousands and thousands of jobs exist that allow flexible working?????
Just cos people have bad experiences in employment does not mean that all employers are totally inflexible. Say what you like about New Labour but the fact that they doubled spending on health and education means there are more and more people making a very good living out of flexible working....

 

[_angel_]

Sorry Angel but if you consider there are 177,000 charities, god knows how many private consultants, fundraisers etc are you seriously trying to say that you still dont think thousands and thousands of jobs exist that allow flexible working?????
Just cos people have bad experiences in employment does not mean that all employers are totally inflexible. Say what you like about New Labour but the fact that they doubled spending on health and education means there are more and more people making a very good living out of flexible working....

That's nice for them. In the real world I've not had one of these 'flexible' jobs and reading through yesterdays jobs ads didn't see a single one advertised.

 

[_angel_]

Most people who get to do 'flexible working' and working from home are people who are quite high flyers and have spent a considerable time working up their careers to get to the level where they can organise their own workload.

The kind of jobs I'm going for/ likely to do are not going to allow that, they want people in the office/shop all day every day.

 

[Fruitloop]

IME flexible working on any kind of reasonable (i.e. above minimum) wage is something that exists for middle-class people who are already well-advanced in their career - it's a perk of climbing the ladder. As someone who did all kinds of temporary work in London if I could have had flexible working time and 25 quid an hour I would have jumped at the chance, but all I ever saw was fulltime on shit pay and part-time jobs where you'd need at least one other similarly ill-paid job to make ends meet.

 

[tbaldwin]

Where? Ones you can work part time for £25 an hour and there'll be no problems if you can't make into work for days on end.



Can you find me one single example of such a job/ firm willing to take someone on under those conditions.

Angel...In the real world..There are loads of jobs like that...Just cos you dont see them advertised in the paper does not mean they dont exist....

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Angel...In the real world..There are loads of jobs like that...Just cos you dont see them advertised in the paper does not mean they dont exist....

It's just that you can't actually show that any of these "real" jobs actually exist then?

 

[_angel_]

It's just that you can't actually show that any of these "real" jobs actually exist then?

Nope.

Like me and fruitloop said, maybe they do exist to people quite high up the corporate ladder already.

How am I supposed to find one of these fantastic part time jobs if they don't advertise anywhere.... clairvoyancy?

 

[tbaldwin]

It's just that you can't actually show that any of these "real" jobs actually exist then?

No.
You not heard of charities or consultants or web designers or fundraisers etc etc...... Dont believe you paulie.....

 

[_angel_]

No.
You not heard of charities or consultants or web designers or fundraisers etc etc...... Dont believe you paulie.....

I'm not qualified enough to do that kind of thing. I would have to start q a lot lower down there that wouldn't be well paid or flexible.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

No.
You not heard of charities or consultants or web designers or fundraisers etc etc...... Dont believe you paulie.....

Urbanblues calculates that the pay would need to be £25p/h to make moving into work feasible and desireable, which equates to >£40k a year. Further, the work would need to be flexible to accomodate variations in ability to work.

You come along and say that there are loads of opportunities available like that. Where? charities or consultants or web designers or fundraisers - unless you're senior management, i can't think of a single vacancy that i've seen recently that even comes to close to Urbanblues requirements there, but you say you know loads.

So where are they, then we can all apply and better ourselves....?

 

[trevhagl]

It is Tory tabloid fiction to suggest that most people on incapacity are shysters. Many are mentally ill so while you won't see them hobbling down the street on crutches , work would be such a trauma that it would make their condition worse. I have worked with these people and many don't turn up for appointments even when they risk losing their money so how would you expect them to turn up for work? And lets not talk about neo liberal agenda, it's neo fascist if anything - preying on the weakest in society - dangerous intimidation of people who can't cope and are genuine suicide risks.
Lets get back to the 80's and looking after your class not talking like Tory bastards

 

[tbaldwin]

Urbanblues calculates that the pay would need to be £25p/h to make moving into work feasible and desireable, which equates to >£40k a year. Further, the work would need to be flexible to accomodate variations in ability to work.

You come along and say that there are loads of opportunities available like that. Where? charities or consultants or web designers or fundraisers - unless you're senior management, i can't think of a single vacancy that i've seen recently that even comes to close to Urbanblues requirements there, but you say you know loads.

So where are they, then we can all apply and better ourselves....?

You working at the mo paulie how much do you earn?
Maybe the world of people earning £40 grand is so secret that some people have never heard of it......
But as a great man once said Imagination is more important than intelligence....

 

[_angel_]

You working at the mo paulie how much do you earn?
Maybe the world of people earning £40 grand is so secret that some people have never heard of it......
But as a great man once said Imagination is more important than intelligence....

So now I have to imagine my way into well paid part time work...


...or did you mean prostitution?

 

[tbaldwin]

It is Tory tabloid fiction to suggest that most people on incapacity are shysters. Many are mentally ill so while you won't see them hobbling down the street on crutches , work would be such a trauma that it would make their condition worse. I have worked with these people and many don't turn up for appointments even when they risk losing their money so how would you expect them to turn up for work? And lets not talk about neo liberal agenda, it's neo fascist if anything - preying on the weakest in society - dangerous intimidation of people who can't cope and are genuine suicide risks.
Lets get back to the 80's and looking after your class not talking like Tory bastards

And the alternative is what??????????

That we should all campaign for lonely and suicidical people to be left well alone......
That we should all campaign to make sure that disabled people are left on benefits to rot away.....

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

You working at the mo paulie how much do you earn?
Maybe the world of people earning £40 grand is so secret that some people have never heard of it......
But as a great man once said Imagination is more important than intelligence....

Median earnings in this country are ~£23,000 p/a, so you're correct that the world of £40k+ is a secret to the vast majority of people. Why does it matter how much I earn in my asking you to validate or back up your vague assertions. How much do you earn? Would that make any difference to what we're driving at here? Not really.

So answer the question, where are all these £40k+ flexible jobs that you claim exist?

 

[tbaldwin]

Median earnings in this country are ~£23,000 p/a, so you're correct that the world of £40k+ is a secret to the vast majority of people. Why does it matter how much I earn in my asking you to validate or back up your vague assertions. How much do you earn? Would that make any difference to what we're driving at here? Not really.

So answer the question, where are all these £40k+ flexible jobs that you claim exist?

All over the place....As i think you well know. So what point are you trying to make?

 

[_angel_]

All over the place....As i think you well know. So what point are you trying to make?

yes for people who have worked their way up. When I get a job I will have to start pretty much at the bottom.

Morrisons will not be offering me £40k to work part time and stack shelves from home.

 

[brasicritique]

True enough. But what is the answer to huge levels of unemployment and underemployment? I really dont think its enough to defend the rights of people who dont want to work for shit wages..I think there has to be a recognition that long term unemployment is a really bad thing.As ive said countless times before the vast majority of people on IB etc could work and would work with the right support and encouragement.

sorry Tbaldwin 628,000 vancies mosts on part time temp contracts or below the statutory 6 months period which allows people on JSA to take them in the first place

5.5MILLION on benefits and jobless rising economic downturn looming

I think you should question why uk journalists are meraly acting as PR agents and not giving the real facts or statistics to people nor treating the story with the critical unbiased thinking it deserves