Purnell: more attacks on the unemployed, etc

[smokedout]

With 678,000 vacancies in the economy, Work and Pensions Secretary James Purnell will argue that there is a job for everyone who wants one, and it is the responsibility of the unemployed to ensure they have the skills they need to secure work.

there well may be that many vacancies in the economy, youd expect it as people leave to have kids, retire etc

unfortunately the number of people on jsa is around 1.6 million so there clearly isnt a job for everyone who wants one

posting this here cos was off topic on the other thread

Poverty Pimps March On - A4E Close Local Law Centre

The appalling treatment of the people A4E call clients is matched only by their disgraceful treatment of their own workforce. One former staff member who worked in the now closed Camden branch told the void:

“I was quite shocked at the low salary I was offered which was a good 25% below what you’d expect to receive for a similiar position, but I needed a job and foolishly took up the position. I was even more shocked to be told on my first day that telling any of my colleagues my salary was a sackable offence.

A few weeks in I realised why when after a few drinks after work I discovered I was actually the best paid person there, with many of my colleagues on little more than the minimum wage for skilled positions such as IT trainers.

I received no induction and scant support from a mmanager who was rarely present. I never received a contract. Although my working hours were 9-5.30 I was told that I was expected to be there at 8.30am ‘to prepare’. Lunch was half an hour, barely long enough to buy and eat food (if you could afford food) and there were no breaks.

The training being offered to the clients was appalling bad and not at all relevent. Group sizes could be as large as 30 with many others floating around the building doing nothing at all. This was because A4E weren’t able to find work experience placements for people which left them forced to attend the offices for 30 hours a week and do precisely nothing.

I don’t think one of the people I was involved in training found paid work except for one guy who was co-opted to work for A4E under threat of benefit sanctions. Every client was supposed to have an ‘Individual Training Plan’ which was specifically tailored to their needs. I was therefore shocked when I was handed a photocopied training plan and told to copy it out for every single client.

As far as I could tell, every A4E client in the country, thousands of them, had the exact same ‘Individual Training Plan’. There was no computer access, one phone and a rag tag selection of out of date newspapers which were to be used for the clients to find work. Clients were not provided with any lunch and many were unable to buy it at Central London prices so most of them went all day without any food.

The final straw came for me when a new manager decided to illegally increase the clients time on the programme by two and a half hours a week, forcing them to attend the centre to do nothing for over the allotted 30 hours. No reason was given for this move which also increased the staff’s already punishing workload.

After making several complaints to my manager and encouraging clients to do the same on the A4E complaints line (which was never answered) I was sacked without any diciplinary hearing or prior warning.

I wasn’t sorry to leave.”

 

[treelover]

have you put that on IUK?

 

[smokedout]

no, bit late now, the hull advice centre story is kind of old news

 

[_angel_]

The appalling treatment of the people A4E call clients is matched only by their disgraceful treatment of their own workforce. One former staff member who worked in the now closed Camden branch told the void:

“I was quite shocked at the low salary I was offered which was a good 25% below what you’d expect to receive for a similiar position, but I needed a job and foolishly took up the position. I was even more shocked to be told on my first day that telling any of my colleagues my salary was a sackable offence.

A few weeks in I realised why when after a few drinks after work I discovered I was actually the best paid person there, with many of my colleagues on little more than the minimum wage for skilled positions such as IT trainers.

I received no induction and scant support from a mmanager who was rarely present. I never received a contract. Although my working hours were 9-5.30 I was told that I was expected to be there at 8.30am ‘to prepare’. Lunch was half an hour, barely long enough to buy and eat food (if you could afford food) and there were no breaks.

The training being offered to the clients was appalling bad and not at all relevent. Group sizes could be as large as 30 with many others floating around the building doing nothing at all. This was because A4E weren’t able to find work experience placements for people which left them forced to attend the offices for 30 hours a week and do precisely nothing.

I don’t think one of the people I was involved in training found paid work except for one guy who was co-opted to work for A4E under threat of benefit sanctions. Every client was supposed to have an ‘Individual Training Plan’ which was specifically tailored to their needs. I was therefore shocked when I was handed a photocopied training plan and told to copy it out for every single client.

As far as I could tell, every A4E client in the country, thousands of them, had the exact same ‘Individual Training Plan’. There was no computer access, one phone and a rag tag selection of out of date newspapers which were to be used for the clients to find work. Clients were not provided with any lunch and many were unable to buy it at Central London prices so most of them went all day without any food.

The final straw came for me when a new manager decided to illegally increase the clients time on the programme by two and a half hours a week, forcing them to attend the centre to do nothing for over the allotted 30 hours. No reason was given for this move which also increased the staff’s already punishing workload.

After making several complaints to my manager and encouraging clients to do the same on the A4E complaints line (which was never answered) I was sacked without any diciplinary hearing or prior warning.

I wasn’t sorry to leave.”

These bastards must be breaking employment laws. They need closing down. If I were forced to attend somewhere for 30 hours a week and received no training or help finding work I'd grass them up to my MP immediately.

 

[Greebo]

You forget these people usually have to have been signing on for at least 6 months before joining a scheme like that - by which time they are likely to be demoralised, skint, and not the most able to stand up for themselves.

 

[Urbanblues]

Just for the record, I’m not demanding that I receive £40 k per annum; though if anyone knows of an altruistic employer who’d be willing could cope with an employee who can’t guarantee he’ll get to work on time ever; can’t guarantee he’ll come into work from one day to the next; when he is at work can’t promise he’ll not nod off, due to sleep deprivation; can’t assure he’ll be able to actually function properly due to chronic pain; and, in a 4-hour period may have to visit the toilet 4-6 times – don’t be shy, point him in my direction; as I’m just the man he’s looking for.

The fact that I’d only manage to work a maximum of 16-hours a week (that’s best-case scenario day-in day out, week-in week-out ad infinitum) would give me earnings of £20,800 per annum at £25 per hour. More realistically, I’ll be offered £6-8 per hour – or £96-128 per week. I think I could starve to death pretty well on that sort of wage.

Any idea what kind of Tax Credits I’d receive for working 16-hours – mind, 16-hours is an inspirational figure; the reality could be as low as 0 hours. What then? Tax Credits, Income Support, Housing Benefit, Council Tax Rebates, shiny bowl on street corner with skinny dog on string to pluck the hardened heartstrings of passers by...

 

[Urbanblues]

There are jobs like that UB. If you did some voluntary work and got some experience then maybe you could get one.

About three years ago, I tried the voluntary work thing – off the record off course. Got as far as far as interviews for positions; however, I only made it to one of the four interviews I was short-listed for – on the other three days my condition made it impossible to attend on time. Sadly, I was so medicated-up for the fourth interview (you see I took my meds the night before Baclofen etc) that I dribbled and mumbled incoherently in response to questions.

Fuck knows why; but, I wasn’t successful. Baldwin, got any tips on how to successfully dribble and slur your way to the top?

 

[rioted]

You working at the mo paulie how much do you earn?
Maybe the world of people earning £40 grand is so secret that some people have never heard of it......
But as a great man once said Imagination is more important than intelligence....

ANYONE can IMAGINE a £40K a year job, especially after a spliff or two. Come on, let us in on the secret: where are they hiding? Either put up or shut up, as they say.

 

[scifisam]

This confuses me. I've mentioned this here before: a couple of years ago, I worked for a company that provided trainging to people referred by the JobCentre. It was a private company, and it started doing this in about 2002 (maybe slightly earlier). The students were all on benefits and they lost their benefits if they didn't attend. It was a private company, and it was paid on results (results being 'number of people who the company found work for.')

So there's nothing new in this proposal at all, is there? It's just an example of the government making headlines about being tough on benefit claimants by proposing something which already exists. I eagerly await their announcements about giving women the vote and stopping children from being sent up chimneys.



FWIW, the courses at my old company were basic skills, IT and ESOL. I taught on all of them at some point. Our company was actually very good in its teaching - there were none of the problems you hear about with A4E, with courses being pointless or non-existant. I have no idea what other companies in that field are like, though, only having experience of that one.

The students I saw (mine and others) seemed to enjoy their courses; the only ones who were reluctant to attend were the ones with extremely basic literacy and mueracy skills, probably because they knew it would take them years of study to even get up to the skills needed for minimum-wage jobs, which isn't exactly a thrilling goal. They still attended, though, and the course still benefitted them in their everyday lives even if it didn't instantly make them employable.

So it is possible to do this sort of thing well - but it needs to be thoroughly vetted, very well funded (funding for materials was a problem for us - there was no graph paper, for example, so I had to draw lines on plain paper and photocopy it!) and less pressure needs to be put on the companies and the students to find jobs. The results the company is paid on should include value-added exam results as well as job-seeking.

And it certainly shouldn't include single parents and those with disabilities. We did have some single parents, but I think they were there by choice. We didn't have any students with severe disabilities, though that might have been partly because the building wasn't wheelchair accessible (this is a problem with lots of buildings in London - and it's not just wheelchair users that benefit from such accessibility).

BTW, through extensive jobsearching on behalf of my students, I never once came across the kind of job you're describing, tbaldwin, ones that are part-time, flexible and well-paid. People with specialist skills that are in high demand and can be used from home - like some specialist IT jobs - they can get such jobs. But those people aren't going to be on the unemployment statistics, are they, by definition, due to their skills being in high demand.

There aren't 'hundreds of thousands' of jobs for those kinds of people, either. Fundraising is not something which is usually done from home either, and fundraising jobs usually require a degree, experience and long hours - for some reason they're highly competitive. Any job conducted over the phone is going to require excellent English skills, which are acheivable for nearly everyone, but it can take a long time. Any job involving driving requires a driving licence - which some people can't do due to health conditions, and some can't do because it's extortionately expensive.

The highest level course we taught was IBT II - and that is not going to open doors to such desirable jobs. It will open doors to ground-level nine-to-five jobs, which is great, but not suitable for everyone if they have caring responsibilities or disabilities.

If the government is serious about helping different kinds of people back to work, it will provide funding for high level vocational qualifications, as well as entry level (consider the number of graduates out of work), and it will provide funding for driving courses. But that's just what it doesn't do.

 

[treelover]

A superb post Sci-fi, if I could i would like to use some of it for SWAN.

 

[Urbanblues]

There aren't 'hundreds of thousands' of jobs for those kinds of people, either. Fundraising is not something which is usually done from home either, and fundraising jobs usually require a degree, experience and long hours - for some reason they're highly competitive. Any job conducted over the phone is going to require excellent English skills, which are acheivable for nearly everyone, but it can take a long time. Any job involving driving requires a driving licence - which some people can't do due to health conditions, and some can't do because it's extortionately expensive.

Oh well, that’s me fucked on all these fronts:
i) I have no experience of fundraising - is it similar to begging?
ii) I can’t cope with a few hours per day; forget long hours;
iii) I’m bordering on criminally lethargic – competitiveness is a mystery to me;
iv) I sound like an incoherent Quasimodo when I’m tired; and, I’m tired all the time;
v) I don’t have excellent English skills;
vi) I don’t have a driving licence; and, the medications I take would probably prevent me from driving.

 

[tbaldwin]

ANYONE can IMAGINE a £40K a year job, especially after a spliff or two. Come on, let us in on the secret: where are they hiding? Either put up or shut up, as they say.

There are loads of jobs like that. Why people keep questioning it on here is way beyond me.......

 

[_angel_]

There are loads of jobs like that. Why people keep questioning it on here is way beyond me.......

For highly skilled qualified people who've worked their way up in their said field. NOT for people just starting out to try and find.

As you've been told at least three separate times on this thread and failed to acknowledge.

 

[Urbanblues]

There are loads of jobs like that. Why people keep questioning it on here is way beyond me.......

No there aren’t; for if there were you’d be shoving them down our throats. As ever your claims are spurious; your arguments unfounded.

Since you have nothing of value to add to this thread; why don’t you go somewhere else and bore some other cunts to death.

 

[Urbanblues]

For highly skilled qualified people who've worked their way up in their said field. NOT for people just starting out to try and find.

As you've been told at least three separate times on this thread and failed to acknowledge.

_angel_, I think it's safe to say he's trolling.

 

[tbaldwin]

For highly skilled qualified people who've worked their way up in their said field. NOT for people just starting out to try and find.

As you've been told at least three separate times on this thread and failed to acknowledge.

Highly skilled qualified people eh....eeerrrmmm....
Depends who you know i suppose Angel.....

 

[_angel_]

Highly skilled qualified people eh....eeerrrmmm....
Depends who you know i suppose Angel.....

Who do you know who can give me a part time job, now, for 40k? Serious question.


As long as it's not drug dealing or prostitution.

 

[Urbanblues]

Highly skilled qualified people eh....eeerrrmmm....
Depends who you know i suppose Angel.....

Wanker.

 

[tbaldwin]

Who do you know who can give me a part time job, now, for 40k? Serious question.


As long as it's not drug dealing or prostitution.

Angel what kind of a question is that?

We both know there are hundreds of thousands of people earning that kind of money.

 

[Urbanblues]

Angel what kind of a question is that?

We both know there are hundreds of thousands of people earning that kind of money.

In which case; substantiate your claims. Isn’t backing-up one’s claims and arguments a requirement on U75?

 

[tbaldwin]

In which case; substantiate your claims. Isn’t backing-up one’s claims and arguments a requirement on U75?

Substantiate what claims?????

That there are lots of jobs that pay 40k?
That people can have jobs that have flexible hours?
That disabled people can work?

What about proving the world is round for you and angel.....just in case your doubting that too?

 

[Urbanblues]

Substantiate what claims?????

That there are lots of jobs that pay 40k?
That people can have jobs that have flexible hours?
That disabled people can work?

What about proving the world is round for you and angel.....just in case your doubting that too?

No troll I'm asking you to back-up your claims that £40 k per annum jobs are out there for the picking for inexperienced fundraisers who cannot guarantee they’ll make it into work, or indeed be able to work from one day to the next. Each time I’ve put serious questions to you; each time I’ve explained my particular difficulties, you’ve presented vague and unhelpful answers. When pushed on specifics you’re evasive to the point of taking the piss.

To me you’re an apologist for this government’s failing Welfare Reform Act. This government knows that disabled people still meet resistance in the employment market; they’re aware that the DDA still lacks the teeth to bite discriminatory employers – it’s still nigh on impossible to win a discrimination case at the recruiting stage – and yet, they refuse to introduce proper punitive measures against offending bosses.

I’ll try again.

Do you still insist that people with variable and unpredictable conditions should, often at the detriment of their health and safety, be forced into taking on paid employment, voluntary work or training? Do you still maintain that I could secure a £25 per hour job in the morning, without qualifications; unable to give my employer any guarantee that I’d be able to get into work, or do the job I’m expected to do. Would this employer pay me for the 16-hours I’m contracted to work, even if I can only manage a handful one week, or, maybe none the following? If not; how am I supposed to live? What protection would I have if I was sacked? Would I be disqualified from claiming benefits?

 

[tbaldwin]

I'll try again.....
Where have i said you should be forced into taking paid employment,voluntary work or training???
erm......

 

[scifisam]

Substantiate what claims?????

That there are lots of jobs that pay 40k?
That people can have jobs that have flexible hours?
That disabled people can work?

What about proving the world is round for you and angel.....just in case your doubting that too?

Put separately, those claims are, of course, fine. Put together, they're not, if you have a disability which severely affects the work you can do, that is. That's what you've been doing. You claim that there are thousands of jobs paying £40k pro rata on an extremely flexible schedule that someone with severe disabilities, or someone with little experience, can get. Show us some adverts for such jobs, then.

@treelover: thanks. And go right ahead.

You know, this thread is giving me a disturbing sense of de ja vu.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I'll try again.....
Where have i said you should be forced into taking paid employment,voluntary work or training???
erm......

where? umm, i say its certainly implied by your response here

There are plenty of jobs like that...Have you ever thought about voluntary work. It may open up the door to some of those jobs?
Your obviously reasonably intelligent, you can use a computer what about a job as a fundraiser or on an advice line for disabled people?

and here

There are jobs like that UB. If you did some voluntary work and got some experience then maybe you could get one.

 

[tbaldwin]

Put separately, those claims are, of course, fine. Put together, they're not, if you have a disability which severely affects the work you can do, that is. That's what you've been doing. You claim that there are thousands of jobs paying £40k pro rata on an extremely flexible schedule that someone with severe disabilities, or someone with little experience, can get. Show us some adverts for such jobs, then.

@treelover: thanks. And go right ahead.

You know, this thread is giving me a disturbing sense of de ja vu.

Sorry but that really is a bit sad....Show us the Job adverts then......oh dear........
There are loads of jobs that never get widely advertised....Do you really think i have the time to trawl through all the media to show you some.....er no.....
Lots of people with disabilities do work.....Some in very well paid jobs....To pretend they dont is just plain moronic.....

 

[tbaldwin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaldwin
I'll try again.....
Where have i said you should be forced into taking paid employment,voluntary work or training???
erm......

where? umm, i say its certainly implied by your response here
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaldwin
As ive said countless times before the vast majority of people on IB etc could work and would work with the right support and encouragement.

and here
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaldwin
There are plenty of jobs like that...Have you ever thought about voluntary work. It may open up the door to some of those jobs?
Your obviously reasonably intelligent, you can use a computer what about a job as a fundraiser or on an advice line for disabled people?

and here
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaldwin
There are jobs like that UB. If you did some voluntary work and got some experience then maybe you could get one.

Implied that i think people should be forced into work....Where exactly......You do know there is a difference in saying people could work to saying they should be forced to don't you Paulie?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Sorry but that really is a bit sad....Show us the Job adverts then......oh dear........
There are loads of jobs that never get widely advertised....Do you really think i have the time to trawl through all the media to show you some.....er no.....
Lots of people with disabilities do work.....Some in very well paid jobs....To pretend they dont is just plain moronic.....

Nonsense. Employment rates for disabled people remain some 30% lower than for non-disabled people - to point at the benefits system as being the main cause for this shocking statistic is arrant nonsense. Yes, there are some disabled people who have been lucky enough to secure appropriate employment, but they remain the exception rather than the rule, and that is largely down to labour market discrimination quite simply. Even when in work, research has shown that disabled people are often paid less and have less opportunities to progress that non-disabled colleagues.

moronic? well, you'd know all about that wouldn't you....

 

[rioted]

....Do you really think i have the time to trawl through all the media to show you some.....er no.....

Nobody expects you to trawl through media to sort us all out with well-paid jobs. Just one or two as an example would do. Otherwise we might think you're just full of bullshit!

 

[scifisam]

Sorry but that really is a bit sad....Show us the Job adverts then......oh dear........
There are loads of jobs that never get widely advertised....Do you really think i have the time to trawl through all the media to show you some.....er no.....

So, basically, you're talking shit. There are hundreds of thousands of these jobs, but you can't show us a single one.

Lots of people with disabilities do work.....Some in very well paid jobs....To pretend they dont is just plain moronic.....

See? Up there? There's a post from me that also says that 'put separately, those claims are fine.' Of course lots of people with disabilities work.

That's not what you've been claiming, though - you've been claiming that (repeated): there are thousands of jobs paying £40k pro rata on an extremely flexible schedule that someone with severe disabilities, or someone with little experience, can get.

Now I'm getting deja vu on my deja vu.