Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[General Veers]

As opposed to those who voted with Cameron?

 

[B.I.G]

continuing membership of a supra national state that has beggared greece- vindictivelly so? even if you lack the 'injury to one' feelings you can take a 'pragmatic' look and think 'thats how far they'll go'.

They are so desperate to keep Greece but they will let us go without anything?

 

[B.I.G]

Alas, this bit really isn't true.

Its very true. Many countries declare bankruptcy. Back on the money markets asap.

 

[B.I.G]

As opposed to those who voted with Cameron?

Cameron is preferable to Farage, if only if hiding your true nature means you are aware that what you think is wrong.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Its very true. Many countries declare bankruptcy. Back on the money markets asap.

No, and even your post here tacitly acknowledges it. 'As we have done' really isn't an option. atm the EU has Greece by the knackers.

You are right that they need to default on their debt, and as soon as possible. On that at least, we can agree.

 

[butchersapron]

Already did - us leaving the EU has no impact on what they do to the Greeks. Its deluded to think it does. The Greeks are responsible for themselves. They could leave as we have done. No one has stopped us.

I really have no idea what you're trying to say most of the time. Where did you go back and put right the conclusions you based on erroneous information? If your conclusions (or what you think are conclusions rather than the reality of vague unsupported assertions and question begging) stand no matter what information you based them on - incorrect, correct, whatever - then they're not really up to much. In fact, you only serve to undermine them and the process by which you reached them. It's not something that really demands to be taken seriously is it?

 

[B.I.G]

I really have no idea what you're trying to say most of the time. Where did you go back and put right the conclusions you based on erroneous information? If your conclusions (or what you think are conclusions rather than the reality of vague unsupported assertions and question begging) stand no matter what information you based them on - incorrect, correct, whatever - then they're not really up to much. In fact, you only serve to undermine them and the process by which you reached them. It's not something that really demands to be taken seriously is it?

If you don't want to take me seriously that is up to you. I take you seriously as I do everyone else on here, no matter what I think of their opinions, as it tells you something about them. Even racist opinions when expressed should be taken with the seriousness they deserve as they allow you to hold contempt for that person. Same with stupid opinions.

Those that do not take the opinions of others seriously are generally quite arrogant.

 

[B.I.G]

No, and even your post here tacitly acknowledges it. 'As we have done' really isn't an option. atm the EU has Greece by the knackers.

You are right that they need to default on their debt, and as soon as possible. On that at least, we can agree.

We do agree. If it was best for Greece outside Europe, which it may or may not be. Then it would be best for them to default on their debt.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

us leaving the EU has no impact on what they do to the Greeks

What they do to the Greeks has an impact on what they may do to others at any time though. That's the point. The Greek experience puts lie to the claim that the EU is interested in protecting worker rights. This was one of the main reasons we kept being given for why we should vote remain. Is it really such a surprise that left-brexiters did not for a second take that reason seriously?

 

[mather]

Not remembering something correctly doesn't make you thick as far as I know, but I won't be bothered if you think I am.

Somehow I highly doubt you actually forgot anything, you just didn't know that the Greeks never got to vote on EU membership and you couldn't be arsed to check it up. You did the very thing that you accuse Leave voters of doing.

 

[B.I.G]

What they do to the Greeks has an impact on what they may do to others at any time though. That's the point. The Greek experience puts lie to the claim that the EU is interested in protecting worker rights. This was one of the main reasons we kept being given for why we should vote remain. Is it really such a surprise that left-brexiters did not for a second take that reason seriously?

If people on the left wanting to leave the EU because they wanted nothing to do with the EU on moral grounds then they are not deluded, stupid, or racist. Provided they don't think things will be better outside.

 

[butchersapron]

If you don't want to take me seriously that is up to you. I take you seriously as I do everyone else on here, no matter what I think of their opinions, as it tells you something about them. Even racist opinions when expressed should be taken with the seriousness they deserve as they allow you to hold contempt for that person. Same with stupid opinions.

Those that do not take the opinions of others seriously are generally quite arrogant.

Your whole intervention here is based on not taking the views of people who disagree with you seriously.

And no, i certainly will not take such a process of reaching political conclusions - one which it doesn't make any difference whether the facts the claimed conclusions are based on are true or not - seriously. The real arrogance is in offering such an approach as serious.

 

[B.I.G]

Somehow I highly doubt you actually forgot anything, you just didn't know that the Greeks never got to vote on EU membership and you couldn't be arsed to check it up. You did the very thing that you accuse Leave voters of doing.

It was reported at the time but you doubt what you like.

 

[B.I.G]

Your whole intervention here is based on not taking the views of people who disagree with you seriously.

And no, i certainly will not take such a process of reaching political conclusions - one which it doesn't make any difference whether the facts the claimed conclusions are based on are true or not - seriously. The real arrogance is in offering such an approach as serious.

I take their views seriously, I just hold them in contempt. Ignore what I think if you like.

 

[butchersapron]

I take their views seriously, I just hold them in contempt. Ignore what I think if you like.

it's hard to tell just what you think in all honesty. I don't see you taking anything seriously in your sloppy unargued assertions - most certainly not the views of people who disagree with you. If you did you wouldn't end up with such insulting almost apolitical generalisations. That, literally, is all you have offered here.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

If people on the left wanting to leave the EU because they wanted nothing to do with the EU on moral grounds then they are not deluded, stupid, or racist. Provided they don't think things will be better outside.

The choice was between two shitty options, but I have every reason to think that remaining in the EU would be the worst one. Either the EU becomes a federal state with more centralised powers than it has now, or it collapses in a chaotic and unplanned manner. That is the future of the EU. Given that I do not want to be part of a federal state, I figure it is best to get out while we can so that we are somewhat shielded from the possible chaos.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Greeks are responsible for themselves. .

What does this even mean?

I don't even support brexit, but you're down a very stupid rabbit hole with this stuff now. I think there are reasons why the financial waterboarding of the Greek people is not reason of itself why the UK should leave the EU, but you haven't given any. This is as close as damn it to saying 'bollocks to Greece, not our problem'.

 

[B.I.G]

The choice was between two shitty options, but I have every reason to think that remaining in the EU would be the worst one. Either the EU becomes a federal state with more centralised powers than it has now, or it collapses in a chaotic and unplanned manner. That is the future of the EU. Given that I do not want to be part of a federal state, I figure it is best to get out while we can so that we are somewhat shielded from the possible chaos.

Fair enough. I don't know what you have against a Federal State or how it differs from the UK with four governments. Or why it will collapse while the UK will stay strong. But I understand your point of view.

 

[B.I.G]

What does this even mean?

I don't even support brexit, but you're down a very stupid rabbit hole with this stuff now. I think there are reasons why the financial waterboarding of the Greek people is not reason of itself why the UK should leave the EU, but you haven't given any. This is as close as damn it to saying 'bollocks to Greece, not our problem'.

It means the Greeks can leave the EU if they want same as France or any other country or they can stay. Its their decision.

 

[B.I.G]

it's hard to tell just what you think in all honesty. I don't see you taking anything seriously in your sloppy unargued assertions - most certainly not the views of people who disagree with you. If you did you wouldn't end up with such insulting almost apolitical generalisations. That, literally, is all you have offered here.

If can't tell what I think when I say it directly and answer any question I'm asked then I am very sorry.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It means the Greeks can leave the EU if they want same as France or any other country or they can stay. Its their decision.

That's incredibly naive. Very little any Greek government does atm is 'their decision'. That's kind of the whole point.

 

[B.I.G]

That's incredibly naive. Very little any Greek government does atm is 'their decision'. That's kind of the whole point.

Then we disagree. The Greek government could serve Article 50. They could refuse to repay the creditors and be bankrupted. They choose not to.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Then we disagree. The Greek government could serve Article 50. They could refuse to repay the creditors and be bankrupted. They choose not to.

Ah, easy peasy then. What happens next? Unlike the UK, Greece has living memory of civil war (active, shitty fucking British involvement, btw) and military dictatorship. As I said, incredibly naive.

 

[DotCommunist]

bankruptancy doesn't exist for nation states. They'd get fucked like argentina. Anytime the greek gov step out of line the ECB turns off the tap and threatens to leave greece looking at runs on banks and the likely prospect of more open rioting.

 

[butchersapron]

I have my foot on your throat. And a knife at your partners throat. You're free to act as you choose.

 

[B.I.G]

bankruptancy doesn't exist for nation states. They'd get fucked like argentina. Anytime the greek gov step out of line the ECB turns off the tap and threatens to leave greece looking at runs on banks and the likely prospect of more open rioting.

They can default on their debt and print the Drachma again. Depending on how quickly they can borrow again they might be fine.

 

[B.I.G]

I have my foot on your throat. And a knife at your partners throat. You're free to act as you choose.

Don't worry about my partner obv.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Fair enough. I don't know what you have against a Federal State or how it differs from the UK with four governments. Or why it will collapse while the UK will stay strong. But I understand your point of view.

The reason the EU is up for collapse if it does not federalise is because it does not have the power to resolve its economic crises. There are 3 ways in which governments typically ameliorate the effects of economic downturns - adjusting interest rates, direct spending into the economy so as to inject demand, and devaluing the currency so as to encourage exports. The way the EU is set up, none of these are possible for EU countries who find themselves in trouble.

Currency devaluation is not possible because member states do not have their own currency, the ECB cannot adjust interest rates to benefit one region without simultaneously having negative effects elsewhere, and member states are bound by the fiscal compact to not engage in government stimulus. The result of all this is that EU states such as Greece are destined to remain in perpetual depression.

The above situation will not hold. It will lead to the EU tearing itself apart unless something seriously changes in the organisation of the EU. That reorganisation would have to involve the centralisation of power. Why am I against such centralisation? Because I think the EU is unaccountable as it stands. Making it more unaccountable can do nothing but harm.

 

[B.I.G]

The reason the EU is up for collapse if it does not federalise is because it does not have the power to resolve its economic crises. There are 3 ways in which governments typically ameliorate the effects of economic downturns - adjusting interest rates, direct spending into the economy so as to inject demand, and devaluing the currency so as to encourage exports. The way the EU is set up, none of these are possible for EU countries who find themselves in trouble.

Currency devaluation is not possible because member states do not have their own currency, the ECB cannot adjust interest rates to benefit one region without simultaneously having negative effects elsewhere, and member states are bound by the fiscal compact to not engage in government stimulus. The result of all this is that EU states such as Greece are destined to remain in perpetual depression.

The above situation will not hold. It will lead to the EU tearing itself apart unless something seriously changes in the organisation of the EU. That reorganisation would have to involve the centralisation of power. Why am I against such centralisation? Because I think the EU is unaccountable as it stands. Making it more unaccountable can do nothing but harm.

An accurate summary, I would disagree slightly about the accountability vs accountability of the member states. But I wouldn't have stood away for something to try and make it change.

I have to go now - so back on topic. Apologies.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The reason the EU is up for collapse if it does not federalise is because it does not have the power to resolve its economic crises. There are 3 ways in which governments typically ameliorate the effects of economic downturns - adjusting interest rates, direct spending into the economy so as to inject demand, and devaluing the currency so as to encourage exports. The way the EU is set up, none of these are possible for EU countries who find themselves in trouble.

Currency devaluation is not possible because member states do not have their own currency, the ECB cannot adjust interest rates to benefit one region without simultaneously having negative effects elsewhere, and member states are bound by the fiscal compact to not engage in government stimulus. The result of all this is that EU states such as Greece are destined to remain in perpetual depression.

The above situation will not hold. It will lead to the EU tearing itself apart unless something seriously changes in the organisation of the EU. That reorganisation would have to involve the centralisation of power. Why am I against such centralisation? Because I think the EU is unaccountable as it stands. Making it more unaccountable can do nothing but harm.

Ah good, an interesting post.

Not disagreeing with the thrust of your analysis, but why would the reorganisation have to involve centralisation of power? I presume that, by that, you mean that monetary union needs the addition of fiscal union, so a single central power setting not just interest rates but also tax rates. A proper federalised state.

Could it not be argued that this is, in effect, what we already have, just without even the pretence of a democratic structure to govern it, hence the strong ruling over the weak?

It's an interesting point, given that my position over brexit was basically 'stay in but it needs radical change'.