Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

(my emphasis)
I completely agree with this. And people should note the last sentence, and that I said "start from" not finish with.

Of course there's going to be conflict and violence between people no one is suggesting otherwise, but from the foundation that danny outlines above we can then start to build systems to minimise conflict and maximise cooperation.

One of the issues is, whilst few would disagree with you about the starting point we are having this discussion in context.

In my experience, the single most frustrating thing is feeling like there are no solutions/ways of changing things. Feeling impotent can nuture dismissiveness and belligerence. People hunker down and become rigid in their thinking and interacting as a way of self preservation.

Because of this it's simply not enough to tell people they are wrong and not offer up or be willing to model or to explore practical ways of applying theory or methods. Which is what this thread is about IMO.

What can be done? Can we explore possible resolutions/solutions/change factors? Do you have any examples from personal experience?

These questions are not exclusively aimed at you obviously.
 
Last edited:
The link I posted a couple of pages back gives a good example of a practical approach, Rutita1 : Nira Yuval-Davis and Sukhwant Dhaliwal, women actively campaigning against fundamentalism within ethnic minority groups, at the same time as challenging racism. Real anti-fundamentalist anti-racist feminism, with a robust critique of top-down multiculturism.

25 years: women working against fundamentalism in the UK

"In London, Ken Livingstone's Greater London Council created resources for a whole new wave of secular, left, anti-racist and feminist projects that opened out political possibilities. But at the same time, Livingstone was bolstering right wing religious groups that slipped through funding streams by projecting themselves as 'cultural projects'."

"The issues that we had raised in our critique of multiculturalism became accentuated as the number of 'religious leaders' and representatives increased exponentially. They became a critical part of New Labour's neo liberal instrumentalisation of 'community' and they were given additional spaces within which to manoeuvre."

"...we also opposed the way in which the Stop the War Coalition responded to this new security state by building an alliance with factions of right wing Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-e-Islami networks in Britain. At the time, there was little scrutiny of global fundamentalist networks by either anti-racist or feminist academics and activists."

"However, there has been an entrenchment of religious identity politics – something we spent decades contesting.

Asserting that rights need not be justified by religious texts or frameworks, but must simply be available to everyone, requires new struggles."

Their book, which I have in front of me, is full of chapters discussing their struggle to critique and challenge top-down multiculturalism, the reactionary misogynist fundamentalism it fostered, and racism. It does this in a way that challenges identity politics. (NYD describes in her chapter how she was rejected as a 'bona fide' anti-racist activist by some groups because she fell foul of a narrow definition of "Black"). The writers also critique the limitations of their organisation (WAF), so it's a useful read not merely a hagiography.

But such approaches are ways of combating what went wrong, and showing how struggles must underline that the goals are for everyone.
 
What can be done? Can we explore possible resolutions/solutions/change factors?

Why not start by questioning the efficacy of the approach currently in vogue across much of 'the left': identity politics.

Earlier in the thread you said:
The only way I have ever seen unity develop which was otherwise not there has been through building trust...it took time but was achieved by focusing on common needs/purpose...

To which I replied:
Isn't this anathema to identity politics, the focus of which is the exact opposite i.e. what makes us different?

Any thoughts?
 
Which takes us right back to the beginning: you saying that wolves have a moral conception of right and wrong, and me asking 'how can we know that for sure?'
Yes, we were going in circles.

Problem is your 'for sure'. It's not really what science deals with. Explanations are based on the evidence (and the evidence includes us when studying animal behaviour). To test those explanations, you ask things like what predictive power those explanations have. These are scientific things.

Until very recently, asking questions about animal minds could lose you your scientific career. People would be warned off it. That's changing now with the likes of Safina I mentioned and de Waal that danny mentioned, popularising views that have been held for a long time on the quiet by those who do the thousands of hard hours of observations involved in long-term field studies. And what people like Safina, de Waal, and many others, are increasingly stressing is that there is no scientific basis for assuming a rupture between human minds and the minds of other animals. That old canard that you need human language to be able to reason has been thoroughly debunked - phildwyer on here still clings to it, but it's patent nonsense. In neglecting the minds of other animals, we end up badly misunderstanding our own minds.
 
Unless anyone is trying to suggest that we should build a political coalition with the World's bonobo apes, great crested newts, chaffinches and krill, I am struggling to see any relevance to the opening post in the direction this thread is now headed.
 
Last edited:
Unless anyone is trying to suggest that we should build a political coalition with the worlds bonobo apes, great crested newts, chaffinches and krill, I am struggling to see any point to the direction this thread is now headed.
It was a weird and wonderful detour that resulted from folk latching onto my phrase "social animal" as a descriptor of the human condition. We were just about out the other side of that tunnel, I thought, but maybe it was just a skylight...
 
It was a weird and wonderful detour that resulted from folk latching onto my phrase "social animal" as a descriptor of the human condition. We were just about out the other side of that tunnel, I thought, but maybe it was just a skylight...
I had determined not to respond to jc3 any more. Sorry, couldn't resist the urge this morning. :oops:
 
I guess some animals enjoy privilege. In the wild, the alpha male of a pride of lions will mate will all the females. Or is that a pride of baboons? And domesticated animals will enjoy a kind of privilege, like being spoiled by their owners. The other day one of the dogs was being admired by someone and the owner said that "he thinks he's human". I thought that's wrong; it's you who thinks he's human.
 
article-0-1CE286AA00000578-610_634x422.jpg
 
I guess some animals enjoy privilege. In the wild, the alpha male of a pride of lions will mate will all the females. Or is that a pride of baboons? And domesticated animals will enjoy a kind of privilege, like being spoiled by their owners. The other day one of the dogs was being admired by someone and the owner said that "he thinks he's human". I thought that's wrong; it's you who thinks he's human.

>50% of male lions die as a result of violence with other male lions. I would see a troop of baboons as more analogous to human society - baboon society is very hierarchical, and while male lions must defeat other males to become a pack leader, the infant of a high-ranking baboon mother is itself also high-ranking without having to do anything. Surely that's more analogous to human society and the privilege we're talking about on this thread.

In studies of similarly hierarchical vervet monkeys, it is observed that low-ranking individuals tend to be much more friendly towards individuals from rival troops, and also much less interested in defending territory, than their high-ranking 'betters'. Again, I see parallels here - those without privilege do not necessarily share the concerns of those with privilege over maintaining the existing order. Why should they?
 
>50% of male lions die as a result of violence with other male lions. I would see a troop of baboons as more analogous to human society - baboon society is very hierarchical, and while male lions must defeat other males to become a pack leader, the infant of a high-ranking baboon mother is itself also high-ranking without having to do anything. Surely that's more analogous to human society and the privilege we're talking about on this thread.

In studies of similarly hierarchical vervet monkeys, it is observed that low-ranking individuals tend to be much more friendly towards individuals from rival troops, and also much less interested in defending territory, than their high-ranking 'betters'. Again, I see parallels here - those without privilege do not necessarily share the concerns of those with privilege over maintaining the existing order. Why should they?

Is it because of behaviour passed down over generations in the troop, perhaps? Or modifications of behaviour that have been absorbed into the group?
 
Is it because of behaviour passed down over generations in the troop, perhaps? Or modifications of behaviour that have been absorbed into the group?
Vervet monkeys are great status-strivers. They can rise and fall in the hierarchy, and they will form alliances and schemes. Best explanation, imo, is the one you'd apply to humans - they are calculating their own self-interests and acting accordingly.

To try to make this relevant, here, we have:

'You've fucked the economy, you fool. Can't you see that it's bad for business?'

'That would be the business that hasn't given me a pay rise in six years, that business, your business, the one that's made you rich?
You're fucked? Good.'
 
Vervet monkeys are great status-strivers. They can rise and fall in the hierarchy, and they will form alliances and schemes. Best explanation, imo, is the one you'd apply to humans - they are calculating their own self-interests and acting accordingly.

To try to make this relevant, here, we have:

'You've fucked the economy, you fool. Can't you see that it's bad for business?'

'That would be the business that hasn't given me a pay rise in six years, that business, your business, the one that's made you rich?
You're fucked? Good.'

Thanks for explaining that so clearly. It's difficult sometimes to understand but that one rings true.
 
Back
Top Bottom