Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

[danny la rouge]

You are the author?

No.

 

[Pickman's model]

Good post.

"We surely have to start from a point that recognises the universal values of humankind and the positive impacts that human society produces (while not ignoring the damage that humans can cause)."

That absolutely must be the starting point.

What are 'the universal values of humankind'?

 

[rutabowa]

What are 'the universal values of humankind'?

Yes let's sort this out once and for all then there will be a lot less arguments.

 

[Athos]

Yes let's sort this out once and for all then there will be a lot less arguments.

FEWER!!

 

[rutabowa]

"A lot less arguing" then.

 

[two sheds]

I think it'll lead to more arguing, as we've seen already

 

[Treacle Toes]

Can we return to the question of what can be done and explore possible resolutions/solutions/change factors?

Good post.

"We surely have to start from a point that recognises the universal values of humankind and the positive impacts that human society produces (while not ignoring the damage that humans can cause)."

That absolutely must be the starting point.

What are 'the universal values of humankind'?

The only way I have ever seen unity develop which was otherwise not there has been through building trust...it took time but was achieved by focusing on common needs/purpose... It took motivation and interaction, developing shared memories and shared achievements. It was no utopian walk in the park, personal prejudices didn't disappear for many, but generally, as we made progress and 'good' things happened, people felt more connected and empowered.

FTR I am talking about my experiences within the context of grassroots community led organising. So a much smaller 'context' yes, but IME the same complexities of class/race/gender are/can be played out and have to be negotiated.

Earlier in the thread I think it was chilango that posted about his present experiences of similar in his community?

 

[Athos]

...
The only way I have ever seen unity develop which was otherwise not there has been through building trust...it took time but was achieved by focusing on common needs/purpose...

(my emphasis)

Isn't this anathema to identity politics, the focus of which is the exact opposite i.e. what makes us different?

 

[danny la rouge]

What are 'the universal values of humankind'?

That was redsquirrel's phrase, but for me there is a universal basis to work on. We're social animals, and like other social animals we have an inherent sense of empathy, fairness, altruism, solidarity, community spirit. I think these things are the basis of a built-in 'moral' system: a set of social skills and attributes that evolved with us and in order to meet our circumstances. It is a biological feature of our being. (For more on that see Stephen Jay Gould, Frans de Waal and others). That is what is already there to build on. It is capable of overcoming our capacity for the opposite of all those attributes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That was redsquirrel's phrase, but for me there is a universal basis to work on. We're social animals, and like other social animals we have an inherent sense of empathy, fairness, altruism, solidarity, community spirit. I think these things are the basis of a built-in 'moral' system: a set of social skills and attributes that evolved with us and in order to meet our circumstances. It is a biological feature of our being. (For more on that see Stephen Jay Gould, Frans de Waal and others). That is what is already there to build on. It is capable of overcoming our capacity for the opposite of all those attributes.

We could learn a thing or two from bonobos about how to get along with one another (and I mean more than just having constant sex!). We're also social strivers, which is more like chimps than bonobos, but we're more like bonobos than chimps in the way that we keep juvenile traits into adulthood.

If you've not read it, I hugely recommend Carl Safina's Beyond Words, which touches on some of this. He calls it 'self-domestication', and sees it as an ongoing process within modern humans.

 

[danny la rouge]

We could learn a thing or two from bonobos about how to get along with one another (and I mean more than just having constant sex!). We're also social strivers, which is more like chimps than bonobos, but we're more like bonobos than chimps in the way that we keep juvenile traits into adulthood.

If you've not read it, I hugely recommend Carl Safina's Beyond Words, which touches on some of this. He calls it 'self-domestication', and sees it as an ongoing process within modern humans.

I haven't read it. But I have been meaning to.

 

[pengaleng]

That was redsquirrel's phrase, but for me there is a universal basis to work on. We're social animals, and like other social animals we have an inherent sense of empathy, fairness, altruism, solidarity, community spirit.

yeah to our own tribes, everyone else is an enemy. if yer going on a biological line you gotta factor in tribalisim.

or do chimps and that all get along in a happy little bubble of empathy and fairness?

them fuckers lead their families away from food to go back and eat it all themselves

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I haven't read it. But I have been meaning to.

Totally off-topic now, but it's the single best book on animal behaviour that I've read, and I've read quite a lot. He adopts exactly the attitude that I would adopt - sure, we shouldn't anthropomorphise, but the opposite danger is possibly even worse, and indeed absurd - the danger of considering humans to be outside the process somehow and assuming that other animals do not have any of the mental traits that have evolved in us just because we can't prove they have them, even when it's the obvious answer. He makes a strong argument that these kinds of assumptions, normally made in the name of scientific rigour, are in reality deeply unscientific.

He deconstructs a lot of this kind of idiocy. He also provides some beautiful, and heartbreaking, accounts of the lives of elephants, wolves and killer whales.

 

[rutabowa]

or do chimps and that all get along in a happy little bubble of empathy and fairness?

Imagine if you gave chimps guns and religion *takes bong hit*

 

[littlebabyjesus]

or do chimps and that all get along in a happy little bubble of empathy and fairness?

No, but bonobos largely do.

 

[pengaleng]

Imagine if you gave chimps guns and religion *takes bong hit*

fuck that man they are already on the evolutionary path of taking us out, hunting with spears they made ffs

 

[pengaleng]

No, but bonobos largely do.

what about when they encounter foreign unknown bonobos?

everyone always goes rose tinted when talking about monkeys being our cousins, that dont mean only the good traits of humanity.

they lie they steal they kill. just like we do.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

what about when they encounter foreign unknown bonobos?

Bit of mutual masturbation normally eases any tensions.

 

[danny la rouge]

what about when they encounter foreign unknown bonobos?

I recommend The Bonobo and the Atheist by Frans de Waal.

 

[pengaleng]

the bonobo only fucks so much to release stress from fighting apparently. nice.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

what about when they encounter foreign unknown bonobos?

everyone always goes rose tinted when talking about monkeys being our cousins, that dont mean only the good traits of humanity.

they lie they steal they kill. just like we do.

Bonobos aren't monkeys. And yes, they're a bit of a special case - probably because they evolved away from chimps in an area with plentiful food and few mortal dangers. But don't most of us live our lives in areas with plentiful food and few mortal dangers?

 

[pengaleng]

Bit of mutual masturbation normally eases any tensions.

use google. i just did. yer wrong.

 

[Athos]

Make up sex is the best kind.

 

[pengaleng]

Make up sex is the best kind.

only with their own tribe, they eat the ones they've fucked up from fighting. classy.

 

[Athos]

Not sure this monkey business is taking the discussion anywhere, really.

 

[rutabowa]

only with their own tribe, they eat the ones they've fucked up from fighting. classy.

Yeh I was going to say, pretty sure that chimps and stuff eat their enemies a fair bit more than humans mostly do. Not saying humans NEVER do it.

 

[pengaleng]

Not sure this monkey business is taking the discussion anywhere, really.

it never does, next they'll be using it as a defence for sexual harassment.

 

[pengaleng]

Yeh I was going to say, pretty sure that chimps and stuff eat their enemies a fair bit more than humans mostly do. Not saying humans NEVER do it.

(((jeffrey dahmer)))

 

[brogdale]

For me the anti-humanism that has become so prevalent (I don't know about anyone else but I hear stuff like "most people are idiots" quite commonly) is a major reason for this crumbling of solidarity. We surely have to start from a point that recognises the universal values of humankind and the positive impacts that human society produces (while not ignoring the damage that humans can cause).

If most people are idiots, many racists, people naturally selfish, humankind only capable causing damage then the individualism of neoliberalism becomes a rational choice.

Yep to all of that as long as we can still calmly discuss the propensity of folk to be swayed, influenced or duped by neoliberal, cultural hegemony.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeh I was going to say, pretty sure that chimps and stuff eat their enemies a fair bit more than humans mostly do. Not saying humans NEVER do it.

if you're including bonobos in your 'and stuff', you're wrong. Fair bit of confusion here between bonobos and chimps.

But yes, massive derail.