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Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...

Rutita1 said:
What you've attempted here is to back peddle after a pointless, snidey dig at me.

I preferred it when you seemed to be arguing that there is only one perspective, you know, the one that you and JP have but others don't. I preferred that because I truly believe you think like that, hence you rushing to condescend to me, like you can tell me who I am or not. Pretty ironic given the title of this thread.
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I made an observation based on your reaction to the video and my reading of the kind of thing you usually say on here. That's all.
 
Athos said:
I think it's an overstatement to suggest that he's "ridiculing safe spaces". He's making the point that, a lot of what now passes for the left (not really left at all, in my opinion, but liberal identity politics freaks) seems to have given up on anything other than talking to itself. Whether that's through trying to silence those with whom they disagree e.g. no platforming, shouting then down, or trying to get them to shut up by smearing them.

And, whilst I don't agree with everything he says, there's some truth in that point. It's not an effective tactic for any meaningful change.
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it's an effective tactic for facisim. thats all. it worked for the nazis why not the left?
 
Since when have the right wing been silenced though? They're louder than ever. It's like that claim that 'you can't talk about immigration' when the political debate in this country has been nothing but that for about a decade. It's not like headlines about tidal waves of migrants are only appearing on handbills passed around at political meetings upstairs in pubs. This stuff is everywhere, this is the establishment. British jobs for British workers. Controlled immigration mugs. Families split with forced deportations.

A few wet college kids waving banners or the odd snide remark on Twitter has silenced nothing.

It's more to do with the erosion of compassion and solidarity, every man for himself. How did we end up with people wishing refugees would drown? How do you debate someone away from such a position? Where do you even fucking start? I can't begin to get my head round it, but I don't think it's predominantly the fault of the left.

Maybe trump getting office will remove the argument that the right are somehow oppressed, deny them their victimhood.
 
likesfish said:
Unfortunatly every fuckwit who cant be bothered to vote or decides in a two horse race to be an "extra special snowflake"and vote for a third choice you get trump:mad:
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So 45%-odd of the US public are fuckwits because they were either barred or couldn't bring themselves to vote for the same shit-eating "there is no alternative" politics as has battered them for 30 years? Rather than the political consensus that alienated them?
 
bimble said:
This is the thing. What if 'the people', the ones that nobody can call stupid or racist, are perceived to be mainly energised by targets for deportations of foreigners, and in paying less tax, or banning Muslims etc. Those out of touch elites have been chastened by their failure to 'listen' so if they want to keep their jobs they'd better start deporting.
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A significant proportion of Trump's vote was explicitly and deliberately racist and misogynistic. A spectrum of voters, from Nazi-fascist Hitler worshippers to much of the mainstream religious right, clearly fits this bill. Beyond these constituencies many others clearly responded favourably, or at least failed to be put off, by his racist, anti-immigrant campaign and multiple credible allegations of a history of sexual violence, making it hard to argue that any vote for Trump wasn't structurally racist and sexist. But we are also confronted with exit polls that seem to show that the swing toward Trump was made up of those on low incomes including union organised Democratic Party affiliates. It even seems to have been larger among voters from ethnic groups other than white (only up +1% on a lower white turnout). No doubt these figures need to be interpreted carefully even if they are accurate, but they also suggest the need to reflect on how Trump was allowed to win. How do we get beyond a situation where defending women's reproductive freedom and opposing white supremacy means voting for a corrupt establishment candidate who cleaves to a broken and exploitative economic model, leaving the field open for the Tories and Trump to offer an alternative to a segment of the electorate who are rightly disillusioned with the status quo?
 
If you were a reasoning Leave voter you may have been putting you faith in the likes of Liam Fox and Boris Johnson actually being competent enough to navigate a decade of huge diplomatic, legal and economic change. You could hope it would make the UK great again or at least push off from a failing European project the UK had done a great deal to undermine. You'd have been right to assume even if it turned out costly the UK, or at least England, would essentially be OK. The economic predictions were just a reduction in growth over a couple of decades and contrary to all economic sense the UK had just gone austerity crazy in a recession so that was really just more of the same.

Joining the EU was a Tory led departure from the liberal UK's hostility to The Continent. It was seen as a way of paring down the post-48 social contract and statist Keynesian policy. Looked at objectively Brexit is a minor shift towards an even more neoliberal world view by a faded second order power that's become a one party Tory state in the process. I take the trio of Brexiters managing the process at their word. Britain is going to China. Brits will probably find it a little less easy to live in Europe the way I do not least because Sterling's long fall will accelerate. Some will pay more for their beloved BMWs and soft cheeses but the better sort of chap will probably make out like union busters. The worse off may see wages fall to compete with 3rd world sweat shops. Back to the days of the Raj; hurrah some will say. But the reality is for 70% of the population slowly leaving the EU will make little difference and it will be a long process.

Trump's very different. It's far more like Farage or rather one of his whackier Bongo Bongoland minions had been elected PM and the UK was actually as important an actor as up their own arse Brits think it is. Things can change very quickly for Americans. The availability of abortion and healthcare are obvious in your face examples. Employers very soon may find their labour force deported or deterred from crossing the border even legally and there being no replacement. Press freedoms may well be curtailed and libel laws can muzzle free speech. Jim Crow already creeping back may gallop onto the scene blacked up and singing Camptown Races. The shredding of protective financial sector regulations will pave the way for another epic financial crisis. And Trump's power reaches out across the globe in other ways. If he's good to his word America's symbiotic relationship with China's industrial base will be greatly diminished. He will erect barriers around one of the world's largest markets to protect US jobs. Read him poetically: he will build the wall and everyone else, not just the Mexicans, will pay. This could be end of the neoliberal world order and before everybody cheers I'd consider what comes next may well be far worse. All that US power in the hands of a irresponsible man who does business like a twelve year old school bully. Uncle Sam moves from an annoyingly pious Head Boy on the make to a fat boy dead legging first years and nicking their dinner money. And that mercantilist approach might even work better for Americans because it really is a great country.
 
Just thinking aloud a bit - I wonder how Trump would have fared as an independent rather than on a republican ticket? What would he have got on his platform alone - 10%, 15%?

A lot of his vote would have been just people voting on party lines, maybe holding their noses a bit. You can probably draw a line between them and the outright racist fruit loops.
 
In 92 Ross Perot got 19% of the vote. He was also heavily against NAFTA, the "giant sucking sound" of US jobs heading South of the border.
 
Rutita1 said:
There is a lot wrong with that IMO. The left, what the fuck does that even mean? Ridiculing safe spaces? A bastard trick. What's his political standpoint? How does he get to speak from outside of it all? Truth is he can't. I could go on but am at work so suppose I better do some.
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I can't watch the video at the moment, so can't comment on it directly. That said, plenty of people with a good track record of standing up against racism, sexism and other forms of oppression feel at best ambivalent about how 'safe spaces' has been used in recent years. Sometimes the term gets used to frame guidelines, rules and practices, which are hard to argue with. Power dynamics ought to be acknowledged, anti-social or violent behaviour should be challenged, and groups should be able to organise autonomously. But cases have been reported on Urban and elsewhere over the years of 'safe spaces' being deployed to exclude people from processes and shut down debate, when the issue wasn't one of safety but personal or political differences. Sometimes it seems to get played like a trump card, which takes effectiveness from who plays it first rather than the legitimacy of their claim. I've got friends who have been on the receiving of it from their peers, when the other person clearly didn't really feel unsafe. It was about egos clashing and personal historic baggage and not at all about structural power relations, which were practically identical. There was even a case of the right-wing leadership of NUS using a safe spaces argument to shut down militant student protest.

I'm not trying to persuade you that the term has no political value, but can you see how others might have legitimate reasons to think differently based on these sorts of experiences? I'm also intrigued by what you are getting at by 'what does the left even mean?'. It's an important question that could point in a number of different directions.
 
eoin_k said:
I'm not trying to persuade you that the term has no political value, but can you see how others might have legitimate reasons to think differently based on these sorts of experiences?
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Of course I understand that. Misuse/abuse of anything muddies people's perception of usefulness and validity. The generalised ridicule of such things though, doesn't focus on the extreme cases. In fact it doesn't differentiate at all, it simply sweeps up every group or platform and says they are wrong, over sensitive, should grow a thicker skin, don't need and shouldn't want focused time of their own. Moreover, it's exactly what the right/conservatives do all the time. It's divisive and undermines. It's no different from screaming 'political correctness gone mad'.

I'm also intrigued by what you are getting at by 'what does the left even mean?'. It's an important question that could point in a number of different directions.
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You'll understand once you have watched the vid. He repeatedly blames the Left and positions himself outside of that.
 
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Rutita1 said:
... The generalised ridicule of such things though, doesn't focus on the extreme cases.
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That's not what he did, though. Within the context of the totality of what he was saying, it's clear to what he was referring - those sections of the left who use such concepts to dress up their failure to engage in meaningful politics.


Rutita1 said:
... It's divisive and undermines.
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That's a bit rich; it's exactly the sort of atomised identitarianism he criticised that has divided the left.


Rutita1 said:
He repeated blames the Left and positions himself outside of that.
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The left is to blame; both the new 'left' for shifting the focus to this bullshit, and the traitional i.e. class-based left which allowed the left to be hijacked by the former.
 
Rob Ray said:
So 45%-odd of the US public are fuckwits because they were either barred or couldn't bring themselves to vote for the same shit-eating "there is no alternative" politics as has battered them for 30 years? Rather than the political consensus that alienated them?
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The 3000 cunts in florida who decided to be extra special snowflakes and vote for a 3rd party are fuckwits
Given the choice between shit service as normal
Or a leap into the dark without a bungee or parachute anybody who isnt a complete fuckwit chooses serivce as normal
 
Because they could have stopped trump.

Clinton might may be shit but trumps much worse and the stupid electoral collegel means florida is very important pissing your vote away therefore is stupid
 
likesfish said:
The 3000 cunts in florida who decided to be extra special snowflakes and vote for a 3rd party are fuckwits
Given the choice between shit service as normal
Or a leap into the dark without a bungee or parachute anybody who isnt a complete fuckwit chooses serivce as normal
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Didn't Trump (may he die screaming) win Florida by a substantially higher vote than just 3000?
 
Idris2002 said:
Didn't Trump (may he die screaming) win Florida by a substantially higher vote than just 3000?
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4,607,146 to 4,487,657. Though I've no idea where likes fish has got 3000 from 206,189 voted Libertarian and 64,060 Green.

In other words, as usual, likesfish is talking complete and utter bollocks.
 
Whereas with Gore it came down to hanging chads. That's a pretty square win in a state where Trump mocked the establishment candidate as "little Marco" and he still got to the Senate by an even bigger margin.
 
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