Supine
Newt Member
sorry to be nosey but how do you know that? RNA tech is new.
Possible serious side effects from the Astra Zeneca vaccine discussion
- Thread starter Riklet
- Start date
sorry to be nosey but how do you know that? RNA tech is new.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Because three consultants told me.
My immune system is dodgy as fuck. I've had adverse reactions to vaccines previously and also have serious autoimmune conditions. Last thing I need is a vaccine that interacts at a genetic level with my immune cells.
Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab?
A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics
www.medpagetoday.com
"A possible concern could be that some mRNA-based vaccine platforms induce potent type I interferon responses, which have been associated not only with inflammation but also potentially with autoimmunity," they wrote. "Thus, identification of individuals at an increased risk of autoimmune reactions before mRNA vaccination may allow reasonable precautions to be taken."
Thing is...I've had 3 x 1 in a million diseases linked to autoumunity, and reactions to vaccines and allergies.
So ... it's not a simple thing to jab a vaccine into me.
And frankly I am happy to cocoon for another year if necessary until there is a natural end to the pandemic or until there is safe treatment for the disease itself or a vaccine that I can tolerate.
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T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
On the politics side of things, I am sure a joint apology by all the British media will be published tomorrow (surprised there wasn't one today, frankly) for consistently suggesting that the evil, petty, vengeful EU was completely wrong to very briefly suspend administration of AZ vaccine to their citizens as a precaution when reports of possible links to clots first surfaced a few weeks ago, and did it just out of spite.
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Yossarian
⏭️
Yeah, I don't think attacking regulators raising concerns about the AZ shot as jealous foreigners trying to smear British success to undermine Brexit really did a lot of favours for international trust in the vaccine.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
TBF they didn't attack the European Medicines Agency, who's advice was to continue to use the AZ jab, just those countries that ignored that advice, in the main France & Germany. who have flip flopped all over the shop when it comes to the AZ vaccine.
elbows
Well-Known Member
When it comes to the blood clot issue, Germany did the right thing quickly and it was actually the EMA that changed stance within weeks, which caused a wobble in the approach taken by Germany since they prefer not to be awkwardly at odds with EMA advice. When more data was available, Germany again acted more quickly than the EMA but this time the EMA stance ended up being compatible with the approach Germany took.
However there was also the earlier chapters which were not to do with blood clots, but rather the nature of the trial data and how much protection that vaccine offered to older people. That was a messier situation, there were data (or rather lack of data) reasons to be unsure about this to start with, but it also happened at a time where various political pressures were in play regarding EU supply of that vaccine. And then data improved a bit in regards how well the vaccine would be expected to work in older people.
If I had been a decision maker then I probably would have agonised over the same issues as Germany did. I'm not going to criticise them for being cautious and acting quickly. It would have been better if these things could be handled in a way that was better for public confidence, but some of that is down to factors beyond the regulators control, ie the actual realities of this particular vaccine and its initial trial data.
I will not make the same claims for France because I havent studied their regulatory stance as closely as Germanys, and France had a messier starting point in terms of pre-existing vaccine skepticism. And no shortage of unhelpful rhetoric from the likes of Macron, who I consider to be a politician that has damaged his reputation in this pandemic due to some very obvious missteps. All the same I suspect if I looked closely, I would give a pass to some of their decisions about this vaccine, assuming they were done on the same basis as the German approach.
I’m a little concerned about this. I’ve had both vaccinations of Oxford/AZ and I’m two weeks post neurosurgery for a brain aneurysm, where they have inserted a metal stent (flow diverter) into my brain. My stroke risk post procedure is 8%, and the Neurovascular nurse specialist has rung me this morning to discuss that it’s unknown how much the Oxford/AZ may increase that risk.
Dealing with risks of 8% plus (unknown %) is tricky to accommodate mentally. But I’m doing alright, it’s in the hands of God! The risk from the vaccine alone is 0.0004%. My risk is 20,000 times greater
Dealing with risks of 8% plus (unknown %) is tricky to accommodate mentally. But I’m doing alright, it’s in the hands of God! The risk from the vaccine alone is 0.0004%. My risk is 20,000 times greater
Supine
Newt Member
i hope you don’t have a stroke at all. Best of luck.
elbows
Well-Known Member
If that were me I'd probably be able to somewhat reassure myself on the basis that my body had previously dealt with a severe bout of Covid and two AZ vaccine doses without suffering the clotting. I'd be tempted to think that this was a sign that I lacked some of the crucial (and currently not well understood) risk factors for that sort of clotting. But, post-procedure, I think I'd still be hoping that any future booster vaccine shots offered would be a different make.
That’s true. The risks of thrombus for covid are
I had no idea of these numbers when I was sick with covid thank God!!Pulmonary embolism, or clotting on the lungs, occurs in 7.8% of people who have COVID-19
• Deep vein thrombosis (DVT), or clotting in the legs, occurs in 11.2% of people who have COVID-19
• Of those who have COVID-19 and end up in an intensive therapy unit (ITU), 23%will have some form of clot
• COVID-19 causes strokes in 1.6% of people
• Up to 30% of people who have COVID-19 will get thrombocytopenia, which is a lowering of the platelet count.
What the actual fuck?!! 8% have a fucking PE
COVID-19: What's the AstraZeneca blood clot risk and how does it compare to flights, surgery, and other medicines?
The use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine in those under 30 is to be limited due to concerns over blood clots - but what exactly is the risk and how does it compare?
Superdupastupor
fun to funky
No doubt mentioned on this thread, but
Was Looking for figures on ' general background thrombosis'
Numbers of 100-150k a year in the USA.
Or a person every ~5 minutes
I know they are diferent buckets of mortality but getting ontop of COViD seems much more pertinent.
*Diffent populations affected, i know this doesnt put anyones mind to rest.
Meh dknow
Was Looking for figures on ' general background thrombosis'
Numbers of 100-150k a year in the USA.
Or a person every ~5 minutes
I know they are diferent buckets of mortality but getting ontop of COViD seems much more pertinent.
*Diffent populations affected, i know this doesnt put anyones mind to rest.
Meh dknow
It’s a no brainer. Just compare the risks above of thrombotic events with covid to the Oxford/AZ 0.0004%.No doubt mentioned on this thread, but
Was Looking for figures on ' general background thrombosis'
Numbers of 100-150k a year in the USA.
Or a person every ~5 minutes
I know they are diferent buckets of mortality but getting ontop of COViD seems much more pertinent.
*Diffent populations affected, i know this doesnt put anyones mind to rest.
Meh dknow
8% risk of PE (alone) versus 0.0004%.
elbows
Well-Known Member
That’s true. The risks of thrombus for covid are
Pulmonary embolism, or clotting on the lungs, occurs in 7.8% of people who have COVID-19
• Deep vein thrombosis (DVT), or clotting in the legs, occurs in 11.2% of people who have COVID-19
• Of those who have COVID-19 and end up in an intensive therapy unit (ITU), 23%will have some form of clot
• COVID-19 causes strokes in 1.6% of people
• Up to 30% of people who have COVID-19 will get thrombocytopenia, which is a lowering of the platelet count.
What the actual fuck?!! 8% have a fucking PE
COVID-19: What's the AstraZeneca blood clot risk and how does it compare to flights, surgery, and other medicines?
The use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine in those under 30 is to be limited due to concerns over blood clots - but what exactly is the risk and how does it compare?news.sky.com
Sorry I indulged in my usual bad habit of quickly inserting an additional sentence into my last post, during the process of which my original post was liked.
I hadnt seen those numbers until very recently. I think an important detail that some media reporting of them failed to point out is that those numbers relate to ICU patients rather than people as a whole who have COVID-19.
This seems to be the paper where such numbers came from:
I will freely admit that this side of Covid-19 is one I've found most hard to process from a personal mental health point of view. Long before there was proper clinical data available, it seemed clear that some people who were not necessarily suffering so badly with the classic breathing etc issues from Covid-19 were unexpectedly dying quite suddenly, often at home. I expect this is one of many reasons why the total deaths from all causes in the first wave were so much higher than deaths where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate. In terms of overall numbers it would still make more sense for me to fret about the risk from the more classic and obvious forms of the disease, but theres something about insidious versions with a sudden finale that captures my imagination in a bad way.
And so I do find it a bitter pill to swallow that one of the vaccines has wandered into similar territory, no matter how rare the phenomenon may be. But I suppose it shouldnt be surprising, if we understood all the underlying mechanisms better then there might be a quite logical, predictable link.
Any infection is a thrombosis risk, as thrombosis has a significant inflammation-mediated component. I dunno how covid compares to other viral infections.
(and yes I suspected those figures must either be for hospital admitted patients- which I was- or ITU patients. Thanks for checking. Still high tho!).
Superdupastupor
fun to funky
Yeh it was just wondering, cos I havent heard it on the news.
elbows
Well-Known Member
By the way there is quite a lot of detail in this document by the Expert Haematology Panel.
eg:
I don’t really understand how immune thrombocytopenia is linked to both bleeding and thrombosis. My haematology isn’t that good
I mean obviously a lot of risk factors for thrombosis (age, obesity, comorbid diabetes, CVD etc, fever, dehydration, bed rest, endothelial injury, hypoxemia, hyperinflammation) will be present in covid patients. Confounding thrombocytopenia. But there’s a haematological process there I’m also not getting.
(eta: just accelerated atherosclerosis?)
elbows
Well-Known Member
I dont know as they really understand the paradox.
I cant figure this stuff out on my own at all, I am reliant on reading the right stuff from experts and managing to grasp just enough of it to get a clue. Maybe I can join a few dots correctly at times about certain aspects in this pandemic, but thats not likely with this subject which I have no prior understanding of.
I believe they've seen this paradox before with Heparin-Induced Thrombocytopenia, which is probably why references to that condition are sometimes made when looking into this Covid/vaccine stuff. eg:
I cant figure this stuff out on my own at all, I am reliant on reading the right stuff from experts and managing to grasp just enough of it to get a clue. Maybe I can join a few dots correctly at times about certain aspects in this pandemic, but thats not likely with this subject which I have no prior understanding of.
I believe they've seen this paradox before with Heparin-Induced Thrombocytopenia, which is probably why references to that condition are sometimes made when looking into this Covid/vaccine stuff. eg:
elbows
Well-Known Member
Ah, if I google that condition along with the word paradox, I find some papers like this one, but I think I ran out of brain power for today so will read it some other time:
edit - ah this one may be more useful for getting to the bottom of the paradox:
ccforum.biomedcentral.com
edit - ah this one may be more useful for getting to the bottom of the paradox:
Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia in the ICU: an overview - Critical Care
ccforum.biomedcentral.com
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elbows
Well-Known Member
Sadly its not the only paradox, contradiction etc that people face as a result of this complication.
For example the following story includes sentiments that manage to coexist despite an obvious contradiction or two.
I would struggle with that myself if it happened to a loved one. And I feel bad even pointing out the contradiction, but its there given the last bit I quoted.
For example the following story includes sentiments that manage to coexist despite an obvious contradiction or two.
Covid: Blood clot victim's sister urges people to get AstraZeneca vaccine
Neil Astles, 59, who had the AstraZeneca vaccine in March, died from a blood clot on Sunday.
www.bbc.co.uk
I would struggle with that myself if it happened to a loved one. And I feel bad even pointing out the contradiction, but its there given the last bit I quoted.
bimble
floofy
bloody hell i had no idea at all ! those numbers are a shock. Out of every 100 people who catch covid 1.6 have a stroke as a result? Can that be true?That’s true. The risks of thrombus for covid are
Pulmonary embolism, or clotting on the lungs, occurs in 7.8% of people who have COVID-19
• Deep vein thrombosis (DVT), or clotting in the legs, occurs in 11.2% of people who have COVID-19
• Of those who have COVID-19 and end up in an intensive therapy unit (ITU), 23%will have some form of clot
• COVID-19 causes strokes in 1.6% of people
• Up to 30% of people who have COVID-19 will get thrombocytopenia, which is a lowering of the platelet count.
What the actual fuck?!! 8% have a fucking PE
COVID-19: What's the AstraZeneca blood clot risk and how does it compare to flights, surgery, and other medicines?
The use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine in those under 30 is to be limited due to concerns over blood clots - but what exactly is the risk and how does it compare?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
bimble
floofy
Ah. Thanks, me not reading properly again.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
She's being very logical, but, blimey that must be hard under the circumstances.
Good for her. Strength of principles and character.Sadly its not the only paradox, contradiction etc that people face as a result of this complication.
For example the following story includes sentiments that manage to coexist despite an obvious contradiction or two.
Covid: Blood clot victim's sister urges people to get AstraZeneca vaccine
Neil Astles, 59, who had the AstraZeneca vaccine in March, died from a blood clot on Sunday.www.bbc.co.uk
I would struggle with that myself if it happened to a loved one. And I feel bad even pointing out the contradiction, but its there given the last bit I quoted.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Strokes (clots are only one type of stroke), PEs, and DVTs are really very common, so there's going to be all sorts of people having these events in the weeks after having the AZ vaccine and they or their family will think the vaccine was the cause which is going to fuel vaccine take-up issues. I can already see this at work with people ascribing all sorts of illnesses to the vaccine, so it is a worry.
As an anecdote in the last 5-6 years I know 6 people in my wider social circle (which isn't that big!) that have had these issues (5 strokes and 1 DVT, all pre-covid and all in 38-53 year olds) and only 1 had any underlying health conditions (cancer) and while that is probably a slightly unusually high amount people underestimate how common this stuff is among the general population.
As an anecdote in the last 5-6 years I know 6 people in my wider social circle (which isn't that big!) that have had these issues (5 strokes and 1 DVT, all pre-covid and all in 38-53 year olds) and only 1 had any underlying health conditions (cancer) and while that is probably a slightly unusually high amount people underestimate how common this stuff is among the general population.
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existentialist
Tired and unemotional
It is rather a shame that we're still in a mindset where allopathic medicine and the psychological stuff are still so much at arm's length. I really do think we underestimate the role that subjective expectations and perceptions have to play in identifying and diagnosing illness. Medicine still relies heavily on self-reporting of symptoms (if you have a TIA, for example, but recover within a short time and never think to associate your symptoms with something worth visiting the GP for), and self-reporting is itself influenced by the state of mind of the patient...and that's before we even begin to get into psychosomatic illness. So, in some ways, people were primed to notice something wrong around - in this case - vaccines, although I think the same could be applied to mask wearing (look how many more people suddenly found they had breathing problems or anxiety disorders once that became an issue), and any number of other things. With the result that a lot more people will be noticing (or "noticing") symptoms they might previously have disregarded.
Another factor, I think, is that we have entered a state of societal trauma, with most of us having to endure peculiar and worrying restrictions on our lives, alongside the invisible threat of a potentially fatal virus, and that will inevitably have triggered significantly higher levels of anxiety - which very frequently manifests as, amongst other things, health anxieties - which in turn can increase awareness of "something being wrong". Many - most, I guess - of those are going to be features of anxiety, rather than organic illness, but that anxiety will lead to more testing and checking, so all kinds of people who may have had transient problems like a clot, or DVT, that previously went undiagnosed will become part of the statistical picture where they wouldn't have before. And I wouldn't be surprised if elevated anxiety itself might not actually result in increased risk of some events. FWIW, as someone who quite suddenly developed diabetes and high blood pressure (resulting in two TIAs, one diagnosed, the other not found until the second happened), it's been suggested that the role of stress and consequent elevated cortisol levels is relevant in both. So there's another potential cause of organic illness, right there.
tldr: "confounding factors"
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