Possible serious side effects from the Astra Zeneca vaccine discussion

[magneze]

Do we know how soon after the first jab the clots have occurred?

IIRC most were within 10 days.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have to admit i've tuned out of covid-news for quite a while, but is it correct that - in general - if you're in your early 40s and end up in intensive care for covid you are quite likely to have some other contributing vulnerability / condition whilst, as far as they know so far, perfectly healthy people are as likely as anyone to get the (very rare) clots?

I believe so. I haven't seen anything to suggest that there is a pattern among the people with clots, other than that they are mostly women of young to middle age.

 

[girasol]

I have to admit i've tuned out of covid-news for quite a while, but is it correct that - in general - if you're in your early 40s and end up in intensive care for covid you are quite likely to have some other contributing vulnerability / condition whilst, as far as they know so far, perfectly healthy people are as likely as anyone to get the (very rare) clots?

I heard on the news today they are looking at things such as interactions with HRT for women who got clot(s), for example, amongst other factors. Investigation is still ongoing. Also, I think there have been cases of men suffering from it too.

 

[bimble]

I believe so. I haven't seen anything to suggest that there is a pattern among the people with clots, other than that they are mostly women of young to middle age.

So a chart like gentlegreens but which showed 'no underlying conditions' 40-something yr old women your odds would look quite different, i suppose. closer.

 

[MrSki]

Important message to get out. There are millions of us in that situation right now!

Yeah but there is a lot less data for those that have had both AS jabs.

 

[Teaboy]

I have to admit i've tuned out of covid-news for quite a while, but is it correct that - in general - if you're in your early 40s and end up in intensive care for covid you are quite likely to have some other contributing vulnerability / condition whilst, as far as they know so far, perfectly healthy people are as likely as anyone to get the (very rare) clots?

Age is the single biggest factor. After that there certain other factors but there are a lot of younger people who have got ill and have died with no obvious other factors involved. Anecdotally long covid seems to affect younger people and perhaps women more.

There is of course the other thorny issue that has been the problem all along in that we shouldn't really assess Covid just by risk to ourselves.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I believe so. I haven't seen anything to suggest that there is a pattern among the people with clots, other than that they are mostly women of young to middle age.

It's mostly younger people, and the suggestion is more younger women than men have been jabbed, which I guess it down to a large number being health & care workers, hence the gender numbers.

Q: Are there any reasons women are at more risk than men?

Pirmohamed says of the 79 cases, 51 were in women. But that may be because more women have been getting the vaccine, he says. He says if you make allowance for the number of vaccines administered by gender, there is no difference, he says.

LINK

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So a chart like gentlegreens but which showed 'no underlying conditions' 40-something yr old women your odds would look quite different, i suppose. closer.

Quite possibly, yes. Odds reflect the level of our ignorance of the facts. The more information you can feed into the system, the more accurate the odds become. Age is still the biggie, though.

 

[bimble]

Something like this or much worse was more likely than not wasn't it, to arise eventually, with one or other of the vaccines.

 

[Teaboy]

It's mostly younger people, and the suggestion is more younger women than men have been jabbed, which I guess it down to a large number being health & care workers, hence the gender numbers.

Also the only people under 45 I know (outside of health & care workers) who have had the jab have all previously had gestational diabetes.

 

[Teaboy]

Something like this or much worse was more likely than not wasn't it, to arise eventually, with one or other of the vaccines.

Yup and I have no doubt there will be much more to come given all the other vaccines coming on line.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's mostly younger people, and the suggestion is more younger women than men have been jabbed, which I guess it down to a large number being health & care workers, hence the gender numbers.

Good point. It would be helpful to know the whole picture across the world. We need to add together all the available evidence. Germany and Netherlands have both reported a big difference by sex.

36 in total from this report, 'almost all' younger or middle-aged women.

Covid: 30 blood clot cases found in AstraZeneca recipients in the UK

 

[cupid_stunt]

Something like this or much worse was more likely than not wasn't it, to arise eventually, with one or other of the vaccines.

It's a real bugger it's happened with the AZ one, as it was going to be the main one for poorer countries, not just because of ease of transport & storage, but because it's being supplied at cost price.

IIRC the AZ is £3 a dose, pfizer £15 & moderna at an eye watering £28 per dose, 2 doses per person - £6 / £30 / £56.

 

[elbows]

Good point. It would be helpful to know the whole picture across the world. We need to add together all the available evidence. Germany and Netherlands have both reported a big difference by sex.

36 in total, 'almost all' younger or middle-aged women.

Covid: 30 blood clot cases found in AstraZeneca recipients in the UK

Just have to be careful to consider the details of the vaccination programme in each country, since for example some countries will have tended to give more of certain vaccines to certain age groups than others, which obviously impacts on the data as a whole that they have at this stage.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just have to be careful to consider the details of the vaccination programme in each country, since for example some countries will have tended to give more of certain vaccines to certain age groups than others, which obviously impacts on the data as a whole that they have at this stage.

Absolutely. But given the low numbers involved, the bigger the sample size the better. I'm sure they're doing this behind the scenes, but the public presentation of the decision-making frustrates me a bit - so the Dutch announce their decision based on Dutch data, the Germans on German data, the British on British data, etc. The vaccine doesn't care what it says on your passport.

 

[elbows]

So, the EMA is sticking to the benefits outweigh the risks, and a little bit surprising, that these unusual blood clotting events should only be considered a 'possible' side-effect.

The full EMA statement (well actually PRAC) is actually incredibly similar to what was said by the UK authorities. The main difference is that they are leaving it to national governments to decide how they might adjust their vaccine programmes as a result.

AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine: EMA finds possible link to very rare cases of unusual blood clots with low blood platelets | European Medicines Agency (EMA)

www.ema.europa.eu

 

[elbows]

Absolutely. But given the low numbers involved, the bigger the sample size the better. I'm sure they're doing this behind the scenes, but the public presentation of the decision-making frustrates me a bit - so the Dutch announce their decision based on Dutch data, the Germans on German data, the British on British data, etc. The vaccine doesn't care what it says on your passport.

A shared database, EudraVigilance, is mentioned several times in the EMA thing I just linked to, along with some updated numbers as a footnote:

1 As of 4 April 2021, a total of 169 cases of CVST and 53 cases of splanchnic vein thrombosis were reported to EudraVigilance. Around 34 million people had been vaccinated in the EEA and UK by this date. The more recent data do not change the PRAC’s recommendations.

 

[magneze]

Here's the full statement, including confirmation that all 79 cases so far were from first doses.

MHRA issues new advice, concluding a possible link between COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca and extremely rare, unlikely to occur blood clots

The benefits of vaccination continue to outweigh any risks but the MHRA advises careful consideration be given to people who are at higher risk of specific types of blood clots because of their medical condition.

www.gov.uk

 

[elbows]

The other thing from the press conference that I thought was useful to know was that all the clots were on the first jab. So if you've already been jabbed then your risk of clots from the second is even less.

Although I thought they also pointed out the caveat that relatively few 2nd doses of AZ have been given yet. But since I looked at a few things today that might have been mentioned elsewhere instead and I've conflated matters.

They also said that anybody who suffered clotting issues after the first dose should not have the second dose. Which is obvious but the obvious still needs stating explicitly I suppose.

 

[magneze]

Yeah, it's of course possible that as 2nd doses roll out the data will change.

 

[bimble]

Did the press conference say that nobody with a history of blood clots should have the AZ vaccine (as the guardian seemed to be quoting the MHRA as having advised)?
Clear info on this would be good, for instance boyfriend person had a stroke about 3 years ago and 1st dose of AZ not long ago.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Although I thought they also pointed out the caveat that relatively few 2nd doses of AZ have been given yet. But since I looked at a few things today that might have been mentioned elsewhere instead and I've conflated matters.

I heard that too, so you're not going mad.

 

[elbows]

Did the press conference say that nobody with a history of blood clots should have the AZ vaccine (as the guardian seemed to be quoting the MHRA as having advised)?
Clear info on this would be good, for instance boyfriend person had a stroke about 3 years ago and 1st dose of AZ not long ago.

Off the top of my head yes, but the language about this sort of thing often tends to be more along the lines of 'consult medical professionals' rather than blanket assertions that nobody in that category must have that vaccine.

 

[Aladdin]

Wont be getting AstraZeneca.
I know already that I cant get rna vaccines...so I will wait for the Jensen one. And even then I will check repeatedly with consultants. I may just not be able to get any vaccine at all.

 

[Aladdin]

IIRC most were within 10 days.

Anything up to 20 days

 

[BlanketAddict]

It's a film about a dystopian future society where reaching 30 years of age is also quite the landmark...

Remakes can be hit or miss but I'd watch a modern darker and less kitschy adaptation.

 

[stdP]

Remakes can be hit or miss but I'd watch a modern darker and less kitschy adaptation.

Total 90's TV-based derail, but the Sliders episode "The Young and the Relentless" was, I thought, a surprisingly good take on a similar concept.
</derail>

 

[William of Walworth]

Really high quality recent discussion on this thread -- I've just been catching up here.
Big respect.

Useful information on today's news, too.

Also, I'm sure most on this thread appreciate all contributions, and respect, big time, anyone with big concerns about Oxford/AstraZeneca's risks of bringing on blood clot horrors
Support to all in this zone.

However, context is key more generally, as many have also said above :

They also said that anybody who suffered clotting issues after the first dose should not have the second dose.
Which is obvious but the obvious still needs stating explicitly I suppose.

Spot on.

But also :

Today's carefully-outlined MHRA statement, is quickly understandable by most, even those who aren't good with science

 

[marshall]

Well, I've been told in no-uncertain terms by my two twenty-something daughters that they'll take whatever vaccine is offered to them first and I'm to stop 'doom-scrolling'.

 

[gentlegreen]

Today's carefully-outlined MHRA statement, is quickly understandable by most, even those who aren't good with science

Including the slides in glorious high-res :-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/976877/CovidStats_07-04-21-final.pdf