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PM Boris Johnson - monster thread for a monster twat

On whether this is cutting through to the voters, the polls are remarkably stable (well, fluctuating in single figure Labour leads, but not seeing a spike after the various stages of Partygate). I suspect it really does have an impact and that's part of why Labour are in the lead, but everyone has either made their mind up and/or failed to be inspired by kieth. With all the caveats about polls, it's worth noting Labour had stronger leads in January.

Can't remember the exact timeline, but January was when much of the story came out and we were juggling between the Met and Sue Gray. Maybe that contradicts what I said above and there was an impact on voting intentions, at that point. Everything since and the long grass strategy - plus a bit of beergate - has lessened the impact.

 
On whether this is cutting through to the voters, the polls are remarkably stable (well, fluctuating in single figure Labour leads, but not seeing a spike after the various stages of Partygate). I suspect it really does have an impact and that's part of why Labour are in the lead, but everyone has either made their mind up and/or failed to be inspired by kieth. With all the caveats about polls, it's worth noting Labour had stronger leads in January.

Can't remember the exact timeline, but January was when much of the story came out and we were juggling between the Met and Sue Gray. Maybe that contradicts what I said above and there was an impact on voting intentions, at that point. Everything since and the long grass strategy - plus a bit of beergate - has lessened the impact.

... anyway, finishing that thought, if Labour's leads were showing a further Partygate effect, I suspect we might have the 54 now. Tory whips - as well as the usual threatening and blackmailing, will be saying hold your nerve to the waverers. They'll argue, perhaps correctly, that sticking with him + Labour being shit + windfall tax will get a victory. Alternatively, however messy the process of getting to that point, I suspect a new leader has a better chance. Can't imagine who the fuck it would be, but 'cleaning the Augean Stables' would be a (cynical) part of their message to voters.

Anyway... I suspect both parties are ultimately stuck with the useless windbags who lead them, till 2024.

edit: the bold bit is all waffle really, let's see where things stand after the cost of living stuff plays out. I'm not sure it will make that difference tbh, which goes back to Labour being so useless.
 
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Can't remember the tory leadership election rules. If it's triggered, does johnson get automatically included and then fights it out with whoever the MPs whittle down (if there are multiple nominees)? He might struggle. :cool:
 
A question for the net 38.8% would be: Name 1 good thing that Jacob Rees-Mogg has done in his capacity as Minister for Brexit Opportunities.

A follow up question would be: Name 1 thing that Jacob Rees-Mogg has done in his capacity as Minister for Brexit Opportunities.
 
Can't remember the tory leadership election rules. If it's triggered, does johnson get automatically included and then fights it out with whoever the MPs whittle down (if there are multiple nominees)? He might struggle. :cool:
Johnson demands no talent or work ethic among those he surrounds himself with, only unflinching loyalty. There will be plenty who take the gamble on Johnson surviving, knowing that they will be handsomely rewarded with a cushy cabinet job should it pay off.
 
Can't remember the tory leadership election rules. If it's triggered, does johnson get automatically included and then fights it out with whoever the MPs whittle down (if there are multiple nominees)? He might struggle. :cool:
if he loses a confidence vote triggered by the 54 letters, he doesn't get to stand in the ensuing leadership contest
 
And another one... apparently. Posted that he had no confidence in the sack of putrefaction and then removed the post (after getting shouted at I imagine):

I think the statement returned, since the Guardian now describe it as a statement that briefly vanished.
 
if he loses a confidence vote triggered by the 54 letters, he doesn't get to stand in the ensuing leadership contest
Ah, yes, cheers, I forgot that stage. As things stand, he'd probably survive it which is (probably) good news for Labour.
 
And another one... apparently. Posted that he had no confidence in the sack of putrefaction and then removed the post (after getting shouted at I imagine):

full statement (part 1)

Police investigations into events at Downing Street have now concluded and the report of the senior civil servant, Sue Gray, who was asked to look into the nature and character of those events, has been published. I have looked carefully at the evidence now available and have taken some time to think about it, as the gravity of the situation demands, before setting out and explaining in detail the conclusions I have reached.

As you may know from what I have said previously on this subject, which you can find The Prime Minister, Update on the Prime Minister, and The Prime Minister April 2022 , I consider the charge of misleading Parliament to be so serious it must lead to resignation if it is established. I repeat my view that misleading the House of Commons must mean telling it something that you know to be false or do not believe to be true, rather than telling it something you believe to be true but which is later found not to be the case. The question now therefore is whether the new evidence we have disproves the Prime Minister’s claim that he genuinely and reasonably believed the events he attended were permissible under the rules.

We already know that the Metropolitan Police have concluded that the Prime Minister broke the Covid rules on one occasion – 19th June 2020, when he attended an impromptu and (to him) surprise birthday celebration. The police have found no breach of the rules in his attendance at several other events which they have investigated. I have seen nothing in Sue Gray’s report to change my view that, at the time he made relevant statements to the House of Commons, he could genuinely and reasonably have believed that he did not break rules on 19th June 2020, although he now accepts the police conclusion that he did. I do not therefore see the issuing of a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) to the Prime Minister as evidence that he misled the House of Commons in relation to that incident.

However, it is not only the Prime Minister’s own legal culpability that is relevant in considering potential misleading of Parliament, he was also asked about rule breaking by others. Specifically, he was asked in the House of Commons on 1st December 2021 about a Christmas Party on 18th December 2020 in Downing Street, which Sue Gray confirms did happen but which the Prime Minister did not attend. His answer was that “all guidance was followed completely in Number 10”. On 8th December 2021, he told the House of Commons (without being asked a specific question) that “I have been repeatedly assured since these allegations emerged that there was no party and that no Covid rules were broken”. He was also asked that day whether there was a party in Downing Street on 13th November 2020. His answer was “No – but I am sure that whatever happened, the guidance was followed and the rules were followed at all times”. Sue Gray’s report confirms that there were 2 gatherings that day, one a leaving event for a member of staff and one which she describes as a meeting in the Downing Street flat and about which there is little detail.

On 12th January 2021 the Prime Minister apologised to the House of Commons in relation to a gathering on 20th May 2020 in the Downing Street garden, saying “I believed implicitly it was a work event”. It is perhaps worth noting that a few days earlier, on 15th May 2020 (when the Covid rules were identical), another gathering took place, also in the garden, where wine and cheese were available, but in relation to which the police subsequently took no action against any individuals present and indeed, following the publication of photographs of the event, declined to investigate possible breaches of the rules in relation to that event at all. This seems to me to be relevant in determining whether the Prime Minister could reasonably have believed that gatherings in the garden could have been within the rules when addressing Parliament in relation to the event on 20th May 2020.

It is also worth recalling at this point that the Covid rules changed somewhat over the period during which these events took place, but at all relevant times the rules prohibited gatherings unless they were ‘essential for work purposes’ or (after 1st June 2020) ‘reasonably necessary’ for work purposes. The Prime Minister’s argument has therefore been that he believed the events he attended were not parties, but work events which were permitted under the Covid rules in place at the time. Whether the police subsequently reached the conclusion that was so or not, if, when speaking in the House of Commons about those events, the Prime Minister did believe that and did so reasonably, then it seems to me his statements could not be seen as knowingly misleading. It matters greatly therefore whether the evidence available can demonstrate that he did not have, or could not reasonably have had, that belief.

The issuing of Fixed Penalty Notices in relation to the relevant events does not resolve this question. The Prime Minister is entitled to point out that in relation to all the events he attended, with the exception of his impromptu birthday celebration on 19th June 2020, the police have taken the view that (in his case at least) attendance was in itself not a breach of the rules, or he would have received FPNs in relation to them too. In fact, in relation to an event Sue Gray confirms the Prime Minister attended on 27th November 2020, no FPNs were issued to anyone. Sue Gray describes this as a leaving event attended by 15-20 people (too large a gathering to be permissible under the rules in place at the time unless reasonably necessary for work purposes), some drinking alcohol, at which the Prime Minister made a short speech. In other words, the police must have concluded that leaving events involving gatherings of more than the normally permitted size, even involving alcohol, could be reasonably necessary for work purposes and therefore within the rules for all attending. Again, this seems to me to be significant in determining whether the Prime Minister could reasonably have believed that leaving events of the sort that constituted the majority of the events he attended were within the Covid rules.

The Metropolitan Police have not disclosed to whom FPNs were issued or why, but it is apparent from Sue Gray’s report that, in relation to the events the Prime Minister attended, he did not stay at them long, so it is entirely possible that behaviour attracting FPNs took place when he was not present. The worst behaviour described by Sue Gray certainly took place in his absence. FPNs were also issued in relation to events the Prime Minister did not attend at all. I do not think it can therefore be the case that the fact FPNs were later issued (albeit a significant number in total) in itself demonstrates that the Prime Minister must have realised, when he spoke about these events, that rules were broken and that he must accordingly have knowingly misled the House of Commons about that.

Is there other evidence then which establishes that the Prime Minister must have realised that rules were broken in Downing Street before he told the House of Commons that, as far as he was aware, they were not? In particular, is it likely that the Prime Minister would have been aware of communications between others which indicate that there was at least doubt about whether the events in question were within the rules? Sue Gray sets out in her report, in some detail, email traffic and other messages sent between Downing Street officials and advisers about the arrangements for some of those events and there were also comments made afterwards about how they may be seen. Those messages are at least indicative that, at the time, several officials thought these events should not have happened in the way they did. There is, however, no evidence that the Prime Minister was himself aware of any of those communications and, in my experience of Government, it is highly unlikely that the Prime Minister would be part of, or copied in to, conversations about the logistical arrangements for events of any kind in Downing Street. It does not automatically follow therefore that because officials in Downing Street, even senior officials, knew or suspected that gatherings would be against the rules at the time, the Prime Minister himself did. Finally, Sue Gray does not conclude that the Prime Minister must have known of rule breaking when it happened by any other means.

I cannot therefore be sure from the evidence I have seen that the Prime Minister lied to Parliament. When it comes to the charge of knowingly misleading the House of Commons, scepticism or suspicion cannot be enough. Natural justice, to which we are all entitled, requires that it must be demonstrated by the evidence that the Prime Minister did knowingly mislead, not that he is assumed to have done so unless he can prove otherwise. The Privileges Committee of the House of Commons is still to investigate the issue of potential misleading of Parliament of course, and it may be that they are shown evidence not yet presented. I remain open to changing my view on this question in the light of their report when it is produced, but I do not believe the case for deliberate misleading of Parliament by the Prime Minister has as yet been made, to the necessary standard, such that his resignation is essential on that ground.
 
And another one... apparently. Posted that he had no confidence in the sack of putrefaction and then removed the post (after getting shouted at I imagine):

full statement (part 2)
However, the debate about, and investigation into, alleged parties in Downing Street has gone on for many months now, and the corrosive effect of that debate and the Prime Minister’s response to it must also be considered.

I have set out why I cannot be sure that the Prime Minister knowingly misled the House of Commons, but in my view there is clear evidence he has been negligent. I believe he could and should have done more to satisfy himself that the assurances he had been given, and that he was in turn giving Parliament, were indeed correct. If at any point he discovered or concluded that they were not, he could and should have come to the House of Commons to correct the record, before public disclosures by others made that unavoidable.

I also find it inconceivable that senior officials and advisers would have tolerated, facilitated and even encouraged the breaking of Covid rules if they believed that the Prime Minister would have been horrified and outraged by what was happening in Downing Street when he was not there. The official who probably comes off worst from Sue Gray’s report is Martin Reynolds who, as the Prime Minister’s Principal Private Secretary at the time, was with him most of every day and should have been most concerned to ensure Downing Street staff acted as the Prime Minister would wish. If leadership is in part about setting the right tone for the organisation you lead, the tone represented by the routine disregard for the spirit, and often the letter of the Covid rules which Sue Gray describes betrayed at best a casual and at worst a contemptuous attitude to the sacrifices made and distress felt by the many who observed rigorously both spirit and letter of those rules. I find it impossible to accept that the Prime Minister does not bear some personal responsibility for that tone. Frankly, the fact that leaving events of the kind described by Sue Gray may have been within the rules does not make them wise in the context of the example which should have been set in Downing Street, and the Prime Minister should have found other ways to thank departing members of staff, as other managers around the country had to do.

I fear too that these events have done real and lasting damage to the reputation not just of this Government but to the institutions and authority of Government more generally. That matters because it is sadly likely that a Government will again need to ask the citizens of this country to follow rules it will be difficult to comply with and to make sacrifices which will be hard to bear, in order to serve or preserve the greater good. The collective consequences of those citizens declining to do so may again be severe. It is of fundamental importance then that, as and when those circumstances occur again, people are willing to do as their Government asks them to. There can be no more central or significant duty of the Prime Minister’s office in Downing Street than to support and enhance the effectiveness of Government policy at times of crisis, in a country where we are broadly governed by consent. What we now know happened in Downing Street during months of Covid restrictions imposed by Government policy makes that consent less likely, as many will say that if senior Government officials don’t keep to the rules, why should I? Putting that right matters hugely to the essence of Government authority and to the effectiveness of Government policy, and I cannot see that the moving on of civil servants or apologies, however heartfelt, will succeed in doing so. Accountability and restoring faith in good Government require something more, both to safeguard future public compliance with Government instructions when it counts, and to allow the present Government to deliver the important legislation it has introduced, including vital changes to social care funding, energy security and online regulation. It now seems to me that the Prime Minister remaining in office will hinder those crucial objectives. I have therefore, with regret, concluded that, for the good of this and future Governments, the Prime Minister should resign.
 
I wouldn't want to call it - it's a secret vote and a lot of them must surely want it over with whatever they say in public.
There would also be some tepid support from the more ambitious members of the cabinet, which might affect the mood music around the vote.
 
There have been several reports made about the threats being made to MPs that have shown some spine - funding cuts, press briefings, etc... In any other context it would be called out as workplace bullying, but in Westminster it's all okay and part of the soap opera.

I have no doubts that if it came to a secret vote of tory MPs, he'd be gone in a flash.
 
There have been several reports made about the threats being made to MPs that have shown some spine - funding cuts, press briefings, etc... In any other context it would be called out as workplace bullying, but in Westminster it's all okay and part of the soap opera.

I have no doubts that if it came to a secret vote of tory MPs, he'd be gone in a flash.
I've assume the 1922 Committee would be quite leaky as to who has put in letters. No evidence at all for that, just an assumption that politicians are venal snakes.
 
I've assume the 1922 Committee would be quite leaky as to who has put in letters. No evidence at all for that, just an assumption that politicians are venal snakes.
Yeah, I doubt that's as secret as they're making out. I doubt the press get a look-in, but the whips will I reckon.

However, I'm on about the resulting VoNC. I expect there will be a flurry of vicious threats, tawdry promises and whispered agreements beforehand, but the opportunity to rid themselves of the liability would be pretty pervasive.
 
The letters only go to Sir Graham Brady, I don't think there's been leaks before.
No, indeed, I've never heard of any. I just find it hard to imagine someone having that information and not using it. I would. :thumbs: Of course if he was seen to leak, he would be booted out as chiar of the 1922, so that would explain it.
 
I get the impression Brady likes being the only person who knows as he’s not got chance of having any other form of power and hence it’s not in his interest to leak.

I assume that there a number of letters written and waiting to go in after the by elections in 3 weeks time - lose both and there will be Tory MPs from two types of constituency suddenly very motivated to change leader and stop the rot - of course the magic number may be reached before then
 
the unpanned chaotic nature of johnsons fall is somewhat satisfying. Him winning a confidence vote by single figures and still refusing to budge would be a fun outcome.
Also - cos hes so weak - its very hard for the tories to push through any unpopular policies and have been forced to do more to ease the cost of living etc. Probably a better situation than having them competent and organised.

Johnson trying to water down the ministerial code and then talking about bringing back imperial measurements (what does this mean? forcing every retailer and manufacturer to ditch metric? stop it being taught in schools? its not going to happen is it?) has probably prompted a few more letters as well.
 
the unpanned chaotic nature of johnsons fall is somewhat satisfying. Him winning a confidence vote by single figures and still refusing to budge would be a fun outcome.
Also - cos hes so weak - its very hard for the tories to push through any unpopular policies and have been forced to do more to ease the cost of living etc. Probably a better situation than having them competent and organised.

Johnson trying to water down the ministerial code and then talking about bringing back imperial measurements (what does this mean? forcing every retailer and manufacturer to ditch metric? stop it being taught in schools? its not going to happen is it?) has probably prompted a few more letters as well.
I completely agree. The messier, and less dignified his downfall the better. I hope he’s not only kicked out of power, but finishes with such a tarnished image he doesn’t have the chance to keep popping up on TV and media forever, doing his clown routine while pushing the interests of some lobby group or other.
 
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the unpanned chaotic nature of johnsons fall is somewhat satisfying. Him winning a confidence vote by single figures and still refusing to budge would be a fun outcome.
Also - cos hes so weak - its very hard for the tories to push through any unpopular policies and have been forced to do more to ease the cost of living etc. Probably a better situation than having them competent and organised.
In some ways the crap Johnson layer partially masks the deep ideological tory crisis. The one where a big chunk of the parliamentary party and broader tory backers have deep low tax, small state belief baggage from the Thatcher era onwards, which are rather likely to be incompatible with the big challenges of this century. The process of coming to terms with the new realities will be messy, with or without Johnson. Johnson probably isnt seriously wedded to those doomed things, which gives him one advantage, but then he isnt serious in general and is useless so eventually it will be left to others to find a way for the tories to adapt or die. They need to find a way back to something that has less to do with thatcherism and more in common with what used to be called the post-war consensus. Whether for them this happens in power or out in the wilderness, I suppose this will happen via big events and policy necessity. We've had some big event examples already, but it doesnt look like the underlying realities and the way these things will keep repeating has really sunk in yet.
 
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