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PM Boris Johnson - monster thread for a monster twat

philosophical said:
Because the UK includes Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is being treated differently.
Like one set of arrangements for Warwickshire and a different set of arrangements for Worcestershire, and this is not what the winners voted for.
This is why I say the UK has not left the UK, plus of course a wide open unregulated land border between the two systems says ‘joined’ to me.
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The winners voted for the UK to leave the EU and weren't asked anything about whether it would be OK for different arrangements to apply to different bits of the UK.
They voted for the UK to leave the EU and that's what's happened.
 
xenon said:
People keep voting for these cunts because they are not Elsie. Pictures of Elsie don’t change their mind they invoke pity. Or ineffectual anger from labour voters.
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The tories say we should shop more cheaply for food. They suggest everyone should only buy those " mysterious " meat products and supermarket own brands. "What do you mean you already only buy those?".
 
teuchter said:
The winners voted for the UK to leave the EU and weren't asked anything about whether it would be OK for different arrangements to apply to different bits of the UK.
They voted for the UK to leave the EU and that's what's happened.
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Absolutely disagree.
I am not prepared to apply any kind of leavers doublethink.
As on the ballot paper posted above, the vote was for the whole of the UK.
Northern Ireland being treated differently means the whole of the UK has not left.
I believe the border in Ireland issue is both a theoretical and practical and historic and political issue that has been brought back to the fore because of the vote to leave.
It is unresolved.
Unresolved, so the UK has not left the EU as was voted for.
 
People who voted for Brexit may have expected all sorts of things they didnt get. We still left the EU.

If you think back to various possible 'Brexit deals', we could have ended up staying in the customs union. That would have seen many more people shouting about how we hadnt left properly, but we'd still have left under that scenario. The referendum did not cover the detail, including complications, mess, and special status for Northern Ireland in certain specific regards.
 
elbows said:
People who voted for Brexit may have expected all sorts of things they didnt get. We still left the EU.

If you think back to various possible 'Brexit deals', we could have ended up staying in the customs union. That would have seen many more people shouting about how we hadnt left properly, but we'd still have left under that scenario. The referendum did not cover the detail, including complications, mess, and special status for Northern Ireland in certain specific regards.
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When you say ‘we’ do you include Northern Ireland?
 
philosophical said:
Absolutely disagree.
I am not prepared to apply any kind of leavers doublethink.
As on the ballot paper posted above, the vote was for the whole of the UK.
Northern Ireland being treated differently means the whole of the UK has not left.
I believe the border in Ireland issue is both a theoretical and practical and historic and political issue that has been brought back to the fore because of the vote to leave.
It is unresolved.
Unresolved, so the UK has not left the EU as was voted for.
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As far as I'm aware, the EU and the UK both agree that the border exists, and agree where it is. On one side is Eire, part of the EU, and on the other side is the UK, not part of the EU. What's unresolved?
 
teuchter said:
As far as I'm aware, the EU and the UK both agree that the border exists, and agree where it is. On one side is Eire, part of the EU, and on the other side is the UK, not part of the EU. What's unresolved?
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What is unresolved is that, to use your terms, the EU is their system, and the UK has ‘left’ and is supposed to be a different system. And as you point out, there is one side, and there is another side except….to all practical intents and purposes those sides are the same, so there is not the disconnect that people voted for.
Would you say Kent and Sussex are part of the same system? Because in Ireland the UK and the EU remain part of the same system similar to Kent and Sussex.
People voted for the whole of the UK to leave, no differential appeared on the ballot paper.
 
philosophical said:
What is unresolved is that, to use your terms, the EU is their system, and the UK has ‘left’ and is supposed to be a different system. And as you point out, there is one side, and there is another side except….to all practical intents and purposes those sides are the same, so there is not the disconnect that people voted for.
Would you say Kent and Sussex are part of the same system? Because in Ireland the UK and the EU remain part of the same system similar to Kent and Sussex.
People voted for the whole of the UK to leave, no differential appeared on the ballot paper.
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What's the solution then? A trump style wall between NI and Eire? Or a united Ireland? (Second option seems the obvious solution to me)
 
moochedit said:
What's the solution then? A trump style wall between NI and Eire? Or a united Ireland? (Second option seems the obvious solution to me)
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Over the years I have suggested every practical option from barbed wire and machine gun nests to the Whiskey Galore style option of turning a blind eye, which incidentally was something my brother who lives in Ballycasey says will happen.
I think it would be unsustainable in the medium to long term to leave open the land border between two very different ‘markets’.
Funnily enough I was listening to a podcast about finding a fugitive, Kevin Parle, and a passport and immigration expert was asked about false identities and travel and so on.
She reckoned whilst it might be difficult to forge a British, or German passport, the Republic of Ireland authorities would struggle to identify a forged Slovakian or Eastonian passport, and anybody could get into the Republic on such a forged passport, or maybe even a general EU ID of some kind, and then stroll unchecked across the border to the UK.
Such a scenario does not seem like ‘leave’ to me, let alone vehicles criss crossing the border engaged in all sorts of smuggling activities. If the authorities stamped down on such cross border shenanigans then the troubles in Ireland, in my opinion, would re-ignite. If you follow news from Ireland at the moment you might well conclude that the peace process is in rather a fragile state.
However it is no good asking me, a remainer, to provide a solution for something I didn’t want. The solution and responsibility is with those who voted leave.
The mocking I get here from other posters because I return to the subject time and time again makes me wonder how much sub conscious or morphic anti Irish sentiment is still abroad amongst particularly English people, even some of those who voted remain as I did.
 
philosophical said:
Over the years I have suggested every practical option from barbed wire and machine gun nests to the Whiskey Galore style option of turning a blind eye, which incidentally was something my brother who lives in Ballycasey says will happen.
I think it would be unsustainable in the medium to long term to leave open the land border between two very different ‘markets’.
Funnily enough I was listening to a podcast about finding a fugitive, Kevin Parle, and a passport and immigration expert was asked about false identities and travel and so on.
She reckoned whilst it might be difficult to forge a British, or German passport, the Republic of Ireland authorities would struggle to identify a forged Slovakian or Eastonian passport, and anybody could get into the Republic on such a forged passport, or maybe even a general EU ID of some kind, and then stroll unchecked across the border to the UK.
Such a scenario does not seem like ‘leave’ to me, let alone vehicles criss crossing the border engaged in all sorts of smuggling activities. If the authorities stamped down on such cross border shenanigans then the troubles in Ireland, in my opinion, would re-ignite. If you follow news from Ireland at the moment you might well conclude that the peace process is in rather a fragile state.
However it is no good asking me, a remainer, to provide a solution for something I didn’t want. The solution and responsibility is with those who voted leave.
The mocking I get here from other posters because I return to the subject time and time again makes me wonder how much sub conscious or morphic anti Irish sentiment is still abroad amongst particularly English people, even some of those who voted remain as I did.
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I doubt most uk mainland leave voters care about NI's half in half out Eu status to be honest with you.

I am guessing you are a NI unionist who wants to keep NI in the UK? Is that correct?
 
moochedit said:
I doubt most uk mainland leave voters care about NI's half in half out Eu status to be honest with you.

I am guessing you are a NI unionist who wants to keep NI in the UK? Is that correct?
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Absolutely not.
Neither am I a fan of nationalism.
I want a pan European situation, or idealistically a pan global one.
I don’t believe in blind patriotism.
The referendum result came as a shock to me when it dawned formally how many utter bastards share the space I occupy.
For me it is hard to reconcile, but there is something to be gained by holding the leavers feet to the fire and challenging them to solve the border issue, because the troubles from Ireland dominated the earlier part of my life. Indeed my first ‘date’ with Mrs P was in the City when on that day there was a massive explosion there.
 
philosophical said:
When you say ‘we’ do you include Northern Ireland?
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The entire reason I mentioned things like the customs union was to demonstrate that various scenarios existed where some EU rules could have ended up being part of the post-exit arrangement but thats still not the same as still being in the EU. Clearly one of the big reasons we didnt go for that sort of deal was because some big chunk of the population and political classes would not have considered that to be a strong enough severing of ties to the EU, but it would still have been a UK exit from the EU.

Northern Ireland is not in the EU, and therefore I include Northern Ireland in my use of 'we'.

The Northern Ireland situation is messy, and I make no attempts to deny that. Under the agreed protocol they were subject to certain specific EU rules that the rest of the UK is not. But being subject to such rules is not the same thing as being in the EU, just as we would still have left the EU even if we had stayed in the customs union. And then there is additional mess because that agreement has not been adhered to properly and clearly the UK government agreed to something that it didnt actually want to stick to, and has yet to settle on a sustainable fudge. None of this detail means that Northern Ireland is still in the EU, it does mean there are unresolved issues.
 
philosophical said:
One definition is unfettered access to territory called the EU.
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So are you claiming that Northern Ireland has "unfettered access to territory called the EU"?

What does that even mean? And if the EU has unfettered access to territory called Northern Ireland, does that mean that the EU is part of Northern Ireland? Or is the Republic of Ireland part of Northern Ireland, under your definition?
 
teuchter said:
So are you claiming that Northern Ireland has "unfettered access to territory called the EU"?

What does that even mean? And if the EU has unfettered access to territory called Northern Ireland, does that mean that the EU is part of Northern Ireland? Or is the Republic of Ireland part of Northern Ireland, under your definition?
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What that even means is that leave hasn't happened.
 
I suppose we could also resort to language involving 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit that was commonly used for quite some time.

In many key ways we ended up with full on hard Brexit. Some of the implications of hard Brexit were not resolved properly, especially in regards Northern Ireland, and so some fudge was introduced. But I cant even claim Northern Ireland ended up with a soft Brexit whilst the rest of th UK had a hard one, because the government decided it didnt like the fudge after all and has stalled various things in various ways that has made the fudge a harder Brexit for NI than it was on paper. I dont know what will happen next with that side of things, but at this rate these issues may not move much further along until we have a post-Johnson regime.

Both hard and soft versions of Brexit were still Brexit, you've chosen your own arbitrary definition for Brexit that means you can claim otherwise, but that road goes nowhere useful that I can deduce at this time.
 
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