People getting racially abused because of the referendum result

[Idris2002]

You have to laugh.

 

[seventh bullet]

Tell it to the Bolsheviks. How many Old Boshies were still around by 1940? If the civil war didn't get them, the purges did. Same with the citoyens of France--they either got a republican haircut or ended as Napoleonic cannon-fodder.

Fresh cadres more than happy to take their place. But it's also the ones you've never heard of. Lower class, never left a record of their lives except in interrogation, probably weren't literate or had little education. Shot in batches in a wood somewhere after their names appeared in a portfolio signed off by a lower-level bureaucrat in Moscow, because the NKVD tops couldn't be arsed to have a look that afternoon, too busy drinking or fucking. The pit they fell into filled in and forgotten about for decades. Repeat a few hundred times.

 

[phildwyer]

Fresh cadres more than happy to take their place. But it's also the ones you've never heard of. Lower class, never left a record of their lives except in interrogation, probably weren't literate or had little education. Shot in batches in a wood somewhere after their names appeared in a portfolio signed off by a lower-level bureaucrat in Moscow, because the NKVD tops couldn't be arsed to have a look that afternoon, too busy drinking or fucking. The pit they fell into filled in and forgotten about for decades. Repeat a few hundred times.

Exactamundo.

The question raised thereby being: is the devouring of children the necessary outcome of violent revolution? Or merely the universal one?

No that it makes any difference in terms of practical politics, but it's intriguing theoretically.

 

[seventh bullet]

You're just doing your boredom induced piss-taking anyway, but NoXion and DotCommunist are still right. Pacifism is for those who haven't been slapped yet. And with such things as massive privilege and power at stake, you're getting wiped out if you pose a threat to those at the top of society.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But they don't have 17,000,000 behind them, as they will eventually realise.

The key word being "eventually".

A mate posted this on facebook earlier: Is not going to be enough to hate racism anymore. People must hate it and stand up against it where ever they hear it or see it. I cannot believe the bile and hatred shown in recent days. Racism is abhorrent and should be treated with severe disdain. Call it out. Protect your fellow women and men

I think she might be right, til things normalise.

No "might" about it.

 

[DotCommunist]

It was Danton, n'est-ce pas? Not sure how you can call him a counter-revolutionary, and he certainly didn't remain healthy.

Or do you have another source?

Jacques Mallet du Pan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He is known for coining the adage “the Revolution devours its children,”[1] which originally appeared as "A l'exemple de Saturne, la révolution dévore ses enfants" in his widely circulated 1793 essay Considérations sur la nature de la Révolution de France, et sur les causes qui en prolongent la durée.[2][3] Translated into English at the time, the essay is known to have been read by and influenced William Pitt's views.[2]

 

[ViolentPanda]

They aren't, the fuckwits seem to think 17 million + support their stupidity! they will be disappointed in short order! the result has emboldened some of them to crawl out from under their stones, champion, gives the rest of us the chance to stomp on them! figuratively, not literally, violence only plays into the hands of the haters.

I think you've missed a very important point, which is that while "the fuckwits" feel empowered, they're going to cause trouble - trouble that will fester for far longer than the racists feel empowered for.

 

[phildwyer]

Jacques Mallet du Pan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Touche!

" Best Answer: It goes: The revolution like Saturn devours its own children. I believe it was a common saying during the French Revolution (1789) and that it was most famously uttered by Danton during his trial."

What does the adage "revolutions at times devour their own children"?

 

[phildwyer]

And with such things as massive privilege and power at stake, you're getting wiped out if you pose a threat to those at the top of society.

That's an argument against violent revolution. Do you have any in favor?

 

[seventh bullet]

That's an argument against violent revolution. Do you have any in favor?

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for a prof. In such a struggle you find a position, a violent one. Kill the fuckers.

 

[phildwyer]

In such a struggle you find a position, a violent one. Kill the fuckers.

Except that, as you just said, they kill you first.

And even if they don't: (a) you discredit your cause by drowning it in blood, and (b) your local Napoleon/Stalin figure then kills you.

That's what history proves. The only question is whether this is inevitable or only invariable.

 

[Pickman's model]

Except that, as you just said, they kill you first.

And even if they don't: (a) you discredit your cause by drowning it in blood, and (b) your local Napoleon/Stalin figure then kills you.

That's what history proves. The only question is whether this is inevitable or only invariable.

Anyone can see you're not a historian

 

[Orang Utan]

A friend of mine says the Turkish and Spanish cafes on his Street have had their windows smashed in overnight.
This is Honor Oak Park the borough of Lewisham, where 70% voted Remain.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Not heard about that- will ask around now

 

[seventh bullet]

I was talking about it in the context of foolish non-violent approaches.

I'm not talking about it gleefully, aware that I am safe and will probably never be in such a serious set of circumstances, but it's daft to think that significant social change involving a complete overhaul of how society is organised is not going to be met with a violent reaction by those invested in keeping their dominant positions in the current order. History has shown that it isn't without bloodshed.

 

[seventh bullet]

Anyway, this is off-topic. The prof can pretend to want a serious discussion elsewhere?

 

[ohmyliver]

My wife was in tears on Sunday after seeing those anti Poiish cards that had been put out around that school, reminded her of cunts saying similar things to her when she was a child in the 70s/early 80s.

How do we fight back against this? I'm a mixture of deep sorrow, and fucking fury at the moment, and I'm really not sure what the best way forward is.

 

[ska invita]

A friend of mine says the Turkish and Spanish cafes on his Street have had their windows smashed in overnight.
This is Honor Oak Park the borough of Lewisham, where 70% voted Remain.

There aren't any Spanish or Turkish cafs there, just normal cafes, but yes run by non white English people. This is fucked up.

Nothing on SE23.com yet...will keep an eye

 

[Orang Utan]

There aren't any Spanish or Turkish cafs there, just normal cafes, but yes run by non white English people. This is fucked up.

Nothing on SE23.com yet...will keep an eye

Yes there are

 

[Orang Utan]

ska invita

 

[Miss-Shelf]

ska invita
View attachment 88920

fuck

 

[ska invita]

ska invita
View attachment 88920

I know the guy who runs that place...he's white and english..not that it makes a difference (its a tapas restaurant hence my confusion)

 

[ska invita]

Any info about the other one Orang Utan ? Big Plate? Honor Oak Cafe?

 

[ska invita]

My wife was in tears on Sunday after seeing those anti Poiish cards that had been put out around that school, reminded her of cunts saying similar things to her when she was a child in the 70s/early 80s.

How do we fight back against this? I'm a mixture of deep sorrow, and fucking fury at the moment, and I'm really not sure what the best way forward is.

feel identically, as your wife and as you. Not sure really what can be done at the moment. Theres some kind of demo in Trafalgar Square tomorrow with a bent that migrants are not the problem, and it will be well attended, but as with most demos im glad people do it just wont go myself as it doesnt really make much of a difference.

A fair few incidents in the borough of lewisham in this thread alone...ive lived there fore 20 years and i know there are a lot of people who wont take this sitting down. at the moment its hit and runs, but if anyone tried anything more front-facing its going to kick off. Battle of Lewisham pt2? Back in time we go......

I wonder whats going on in schools today?
I expect there'll be a stream of stories come home time

 

[not-bono-ever]

for fucks sake

 

[Orang Utan]

Any info about the other one Orang Utan ? Big Plate? Honor Oak Cafe?

Dunno, but Hattush is just around the corner

 

[ska invita]

Dunno, but Hattush is just around the corner

Ah right yeah (also a restaurant which is why i didnt think of it)

 

[Orang Utan]

Ah right yeah (also a restaurant which is why i didnt think of it)

Cafe/restaurant/bistro/eatery - wevs

 

[NoXion]

It's Saturn devouring his children. Often used to illustrate Danton's famous dictum about revolutions.

Nobody said revolutions had to be nice. An organised group of people seeking to change society might not seek out violence themselves, but if they meet with any significant degree of success they may well find that others will seek out violence against them.

Well, even getting out of bed in the morning is "accompanied by conflict of some kind." But there have been plenty of substantive social changes that haven't involved armed conflict.

In sharp contrast, there has never been a violent revolution that didn't descend rapidly into tyranny--with the single exception of the American.

Facile comparison. Conflicts internal to the individual tend not to be violent because most people don't see the point of fighting oneself. Societal conflicts involve violence because there is a section of society that accrues wealth and power from the status quo, and such people can go to considerable lengths to protect their position.

The close temporal proximity of (civil) wars are what make fertile ground for tyranny; the French Revolution with other European powers and the Russian Revolution with other internal factions, some backed by outside powers. The Americans were lucky enough to have a civil war some time after their revolution.

Who is "they?" I don't think there is a "ruling class" any more. I think it's a pure conflict of capital versus labor, no classes involved.

Capital and labour don't effect the world on their own. They effect the world because people do things. Whether those people are working or ruling class is dependent on their relationship with capital and labour as a whole. This is basic fucking Marxism, but I suppose that's too difficult an idea for an inveterate idealist like you to fathom.

 

[phildwyer]

Capital and labour don't effect the world on their own. They effect the world because people do things. Whether those people are working or ruling class is dependent on their relationship with capital and labour as a whole.

Agreed. And what is people's relation to capital and labor today?

First of all, virtually everybody works for a wage--even the very rich--and thus meets Marx's definition of a proletarian.

Next, virtually everybody receives some income in the form of interest on investments--pension plan, saving account, mortgage etc--and thus meets Marx's definition of a bourgeois.

So virtually everybody today simultaneously occupies the position of proletarian and bourgeois. The real, logical contradiction is not between social classes, but between labor and its alienated form, which is capital. That contradiction has become internalized today, along with the ideologies to which its respective poles correspond.

Quite apart from their invariably disastrous practical consequences, that is the real reason why revolutionary politics have no purchase in today's Western world.