People getting racially abused because of the referendum result

[Pickman's model]

This, this absolutely all of this.

In the same vein, this thread includes scores of posts discussing Smirnoff Ice retail packaging and debating the length of time required for consumption followed by pages speculating which painting implements were used to graffiti the Polish Community Centre, what was written and whether photos were 'shopped.

Why put so much bloody effort into deconstructing these two examples among hundreds and hundreds of accounts of racist and xenophobic incidents in the run up and after the EU referendum? By "deconstructing" I mean "discrediting." You know, that minimising, denying and blaming stuff.

i don't suppose you recall the person who was on here round the time of jean charles de menezes was shot who claimed to have been in stockwell at the time but was later found to be a fantasist. the two examples you highlight - in particular the one about omp - have some rather peculiar aspects not shared by so many of the other incidents. why would anyone not polish a) know or b) care about a think tank?

 

[inva]

Yep, these are the latest additions to the list from Rutita1 above.

For what it's worth, I found this analysis interesting It's NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values

Yeah, I know.

"Not all Brexiters . . . "

that article looks like utter drivel to me. Uses a ridiculous definition of class to argue it played no role (I guess if you purposefully exclude virtually everyone from the category of working class it suddenly doesn't look like much of a factor ), shows no curiosity about the 'invisible attitudes' referred to and what might be driving them or why they might be related to class and ends up with leave voters are just all nasty right wingers who can't stand 'difference'.

"By contrast, people oriented toward success and display (‘Prospectors’), or who prioritise expressive individualism and cultural equality (‘Pioneers’) voted Remain."
'oriented toward success'!
don't mention class!

"open and closed personalities"


seriously.

 

[ska invita]

Utter tosh. Let's put some context into this , despite what some posters in Planet Urban say the level and type of incidents being reported are not akin to the rise of Hitler in Germany .

Context is important. History wont repeat itself identically. However there are very real parallels with the 1930s. We discussed these before the referendum and they were expressed widely by Yanis Varoufakis. I'll recap some of it:

It is necessary to consider Europe as a whole for this, not just the UK. Europe is already blighted with a resurgent far right. That takes its forms in the like of Le Pens election-winning, carefully-spoken party, to other nationalist-right-moralist governments across Easter Europe, to parties like Golden Dawn in Greece, to neo-nazi communities out in the woods.

Europe is struggling to deal with an unprecedented migration crisis that isn't about to go away. It also has an economy that is limping along and may well utterly crack again (see news stories about Deutsche Bank and Italian banks in general). Its a potential time bomb that the far right will make plenty hay from. It is hugely worrying. My understanding is that the people of Greece, despite their awful experiences, didn't want to abandon the Euro and the EU at least in part from a real fear of fascism returning as a dominant political force in their country.

What has happened so far in the UK is worrying, but it is nowhere near as bad as things could possibly get.

Angela Merkel insists if the UK wants access to the EU it will mean no restrictions on movement of people we currently have. Those people who voted Leave as in All Foreigners Leave will take it into their hands to make people leave if the border arrangement remains the same (and I want it to remain the same). When the next bit of the financial ice shelf falls into the sea it will create another huge wave of xenephobic and racist hate.

So yes, you are right, we are not in the middle of a Nazi-style final solution. But don't be complacent about whats at stake here, or the forces at work across Europe. Parallels with the 1930s are far from nonsense.

ETA: When I voiced fears before the referendum it wasnt over the kind of incidents being experienced so far - it was over something on a much bigger scale, and that still shits me up. Whats happened so far is just reinforcing those worries

 

[Pickman's model]

Context is important. History wont repeat itself identically. However there are very real parallels with the 1930s. We discussed these before the referendum and they were expressed widely by Yanis Varoufakis. I'll recap some of it:

It is necessary to consider Europe as a whole for this, not just the UK. Europe is already blighted with a resurgent far right. That takes its forms in the like of Le Pens election-winning, carefully-spoken party, to other nationalist-right-moralist governments across Easter Europe, to parties like Golden Dawn in Greece, to neo-nazi communities out in the woods.

Europe is struggling to deal with an unprecedented migration crisis that isn't about to go away. It also has an economy that is limping along and may well utterly crack again (see news stories about Deutsche Bank and Italian banks in general). Its a potential time bomb that the far right will make plenty hay from. It is hugely worrying. My understanding is that the people of Greece, despite their awful experiences, didn't want to abandon the Euro and the EU at least in part from a real fear of fascism returning as a dominant political force in their country.

What has happened so far in the UK is worrying, but it is nowhere near as bad as things could possibly get.

Angela Merkel insists if the UK wants access to the EU it will mean no restrictions on movement of people we currently have. Those people who voted Leave as in All Foreigners Leave will take it into their hands to make people leave if the border arrangement remains the same (and I want it to remain the same). When the next bit of the financial ice shelf falls into the sea it will create another huge wave of xenephobic and racist hate.

So yes, you are right, we are not in the middle of a Nazi-style final solution. But don't be complacent about whats at stake here, or the forces at work across Europe. Parallels with the 1930s are far from nonsense.

ETA: When I voiced fears before the referendum it wasnt over the kind of incidents being experienced so far - it was over something on a much bigger scale, and that still shits me up. Whats happened so far is just reinforcing those worries

sorry, where are these parallels with the 1930s?

have you looked at the 1930s to make this comparison, because to my eye the 1930s looked really rather different to today, e.g. the number of dictators in europe. the mass unemployment, proper mass unemployment. the revanchist ideas relating to the versailles treaty. the utter absence of pan-european organisations - not just the eu or efta but things like the council of europe, the oecd etc etc. what migrant crisis in the 1930s - you describe the current one as unprecedented, thus suggesting a disimilarity with the 1930s.

 

[ska invita]

sorry, where are these parallels with the 1930s?

have you looked at the 1930s to make this comparison, because to my eye the 1930s looked really rather different to today, e.g. the number of dictators in europe. the mass unemployment, proper mass unemployment. the revanchist ideas relating to the versailles treaty. the utter absence of pan-european organisations - not just the eu or efta but things like the council of europe, the oecd etc etc. what migrant crisis in the 1930s - you describe the current one as unprecedented, thus suggesting a disimilarity with the 1930s.

As I said in first line "History wont repeat itself identically." Leni Riefenstahl hasnt made any new films either. Nazis didnt have an official twitter feed. Of course the world is utterly different.

However: Theres already massive youth unemployment across Europe and the financial system cannot handle another crisis such as if italian banks fail.
There is already a growing mood of seperatism, nationalism and xenophobia.
Anti-migrant, islamaphobic, xenophobic sentiment is taking root across Europe.
If you cant see the parallels, fine. But to me theyre clear as day.
And maybe whats confusing is that we're not exactly there yet, but what worries me is that the signs are thats where we're going, or could go. If you believe Europe-wide Neoliberalism is doomed to fail and create further inequality then you should see that too.

ETA: Heres an old Varoufakis piece:
Yanis Varoufakis: Europe is sliding back into the 1930s
Seven months after resigning as Greek finance minister, Mr. Varoufakis now thinks “the signs are everywhere” that Europe is echoing history.

“We don't have Nazis doing Kristallnacht in Berlin. [But] We have Nazis in Greece doing something similar in a suburb of Greece, where they are attacking in the middle of the night the shops and houses of migrants.”

“There are big differences, but from the perspective of an economist we have terrible similarities.”

Along with the rise of far-right parties across Europe, Varoufakis points to the high level of unemployment throughout the eurozone as a significant cause of the tensions that exist.

It is still at crisis levels, and is twice as high as in the US and the UK – who are now reaching what economists consider ‘full employment’.
---
incidentally im not just parroting what he says, i came to the same conclusion independently

 

[Pickman's model]

As I said in first line "History wont repeat itself identically." Leni Riefenstahl hasnt made any new films either. Nazis didnt have an official twitter feed. Of course the world is utterly different.

However: Theres already massive youth unemployment across Europe and the financial system cannot handle another crisis such as if italian banks fail.
There is already a growing mood of seperatism, nationalism and xenophobia.
Anti-migrant, islamaphobic, xenophobic sentiment is taking root across Europe.
If you cant see the parallels, fine. But to me theyre clear as day.
And maybe whats confusing is that we're not exactly there yet, but what worries me is that the signs are thats where we're going, or could go. If you believe Europe-wide Neoliberalism is doomed to fail and create further inequality then you should see that too.

maybe you can see parallels. but what you had in the 1930s, which made the early 1940s so bloody, was the presence of expansionist governments in italy, germany and japan; an utterly ineffective international machinery whose most lasting legacy is a system of international road signs; and the withdrawal from a world role of the united states. you seem to me to be saying 'the parallels with the 1930s may make the next decade end as did that one'. i am not so sure it will.

 

[ska invita]

maybe you can see parallels. but what you had in the 1930s, which made the early 1940s so bloody, was the presence of expansionist governments in italy, germany and japan; an utterly ineffective international machinery whose most lasting legacy is a system of international road signs; and the withdrawal from a world role of the united states. you seem to me to be saying 'the parallels with the 1930s may make the next decade end as did that one'. i am not so sure it will.

I think youre taking the comparison to the 30s period too literally - Drawing lessons form history doesnt mean waiting for history to repeat itself identically.The point to take is the environmental material economic political conditions are ripe and ripening further for a resurgent racist and xenophobic right - everything is to play for and it will play out utterly differently to the 1930s. But the fears are real, the canaries in the mine are gasping for air, and the potential for another mass outbreak of far right sentiment with political organisation is showing good odds.

I do not think it will create a WW2 replay, if thats what you mean. I hope not. Of course that is always a possibility too, in the fullness of time. Stranger things have happened.

 

[smokedout]

Why put so much bloody effort into deconstructing these two examples among hundreds and hundreds of accounts of racist and xenophobic incidents in the run up and after the EU referendum? By "deconstructing" I mean "discrediting." You know, that minimising, denying and blaming stuff.

Why do you think some sections of the press, and the local Tory MP lied that the graffiti said 'go home'? Do you not think there are political motivations behind that that should be explored? Do you not find it shocking that a newspaper could run a story claiming graffiti said one thing with a picture that showed it said something very different and it went almost unquestioned? Talk about Emperors new fucking clothes.

Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point? Fuelling an undeniable rise in racist incidents with lies, or sloppy journalism? Every attack on an ethnic minority business is a clarion call for the organised right and over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks and increased confidence for the very people who would want to do that. You might have heard of propaganda by the deed. That's why this shit is dangerous and a bit of fucking rigour is required. Even the filth know that.

 

[Xenonxenon]

"Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point?"
"over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks"

 

[smokedout]

"Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point?"
"over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks"

why not go drown a syrian?

 

[Pickman's model]

I think youre taking the comparison to the 30s period too literally - Drawing lessons form history doesnt mean waiting for history to repeat itself identically.The point to take is the environmental material economic political conditions are ripe and ripening further for a resurgent racist and xenophobic right - everything is to play for and it will play out utterly differently to the 1930s. But the fears are real, the canaries in the mine are gasping for air, and the potential for another mass outbreak of far right sentiment with political organisation is showing good odds.

I do not think it will create a WW2 replay, if thats what you mean. I hope not. Of course that is always a possibility too, in the fullness of time. Stranger things have happened.

yes. at some points every part of the past has parallels to today: you could look at for example the responses of parts of english society to the influx of jews in the late nineteenth century. yes, there are real fears. but the people who are manipulating those fears are in all honesty very few. my point is that the drivers NOW for the rise of a radical right and the drivers THEN (1920s, 1930s) for the rise of a radical right are very different. on the one hand factors including dissatisfaction with the eu's response to the economic crisis of recent years and with intra-eu migration - and of course the movement of many many thousands of people from the middle east and africa to europe; on the other the results of the great war, the division of europe upon the end of the continental empires, the presence in the east of a new polity, the soviet union...

it is always comforting to believe that history repeats itself, even if in a different key a similar melody has been heard before. tbh that's only possible if you pick out a phrase here and there from the orchestra of current events.

 

[Treacle Toes]

why not go drown a syrian?

eh?

 

[smokedout]

eh?

Crass point, sorry, I assumed they just voted for the institution currently drowning Syrians, and wondered how it looked if that meant every utterance by them was met with sneery veiled accusations of racism.

 

[CRI]

eh?

Didn't like Xeno pointing out the victim blaming statements in his/her post, so lashed out. Poor lamb.

 

[smokedout]

Didn't like Xeno pointing out the victim blaming statements in his/her post, so lashed out. Poor lamb.

the victim in this case being the Evening Standard you mean?

 

[smokedout]

Or perhaps Tory MP Greg Hands which seems to be where this piece of misinformation came from

Mr Hands, who himself backed the Remain campaign, tweeted: “Am hearing that the Polish Centre in Hammersmith has been smeared with ‘Go Home’. This is an unspeakable crime and is indescribably awful.

 

[Anju]

yes. at some points every part of the past has parallels to today: you could look at for example the responses of parts of english society to the influx of jews in the late nineteenth century. yes, there are real fears. but the people who are manipulating those fears are in all honesty very few. my point is that the drivers NOW for the rise of a radical right and the drivers THEN (1920s, 1930s) for the rise of a radical right are very different. on the one hand factors including dissatisfaction with the eu's response to the economic crisis of recent years and with intra-eu migration - and of course the movement of many many thousands of people from the middle east and africa to europe; on the other the results of the great war, the division of europe upon the end of the continental empires, the presence in the east of a new polity, the soviet union...

it is always comforting to believe that history repeats itself, even if in a different key a similar melody has been heard before. tbh that's only possible if you pick out a phrase here and there from the orchestra of current events.

People are not disputing that the drivers are different. They are saying that public perception of events and the xenophobic framing of our current immigration problems by politicians and media is paving the way for a nasty shift to the far right.

 

[Anju]

Why do you think some sections of the press, and the local Tory MP lied that the graffiti said 'go home'? Do you not think there are political motivations behind that that should be explored? Do you not find it shocking that a newspaper could run a story claiming graffiti said one thing with a picture that showed it said something very different and it went almost unquestioned? Talk about Emperors new fucking clothes.

Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point? Fuelling an undeniable rise in racist incidents with lies, or sloppy journalism? Every attack on an ethnic minority business is a clarion call for the organised right and over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks and increased confidence for the very people who would want to do that. You might have heard of propaganda by the deed. That's why this shit is dangerous and a bit of fucking rigour is required. Even the filth know that.

I don't think it was any kind of media conspiracy, just sloppy journalism. I think you are right to suggest more rigour.

 

[Pickman's model]

People are not disputing that the drivers are different. They are saying that public perception of events and the xenophobic framing of our current immigration problems by politicians and media is paving the way for a nasty shift to the far right.

i was not responding to 'people' i was responding to one person, ska invita.

i am interested by 'our current immigration problems'. what do these problems consist of?

 

[Anju]

i was not responding to 'people' i was responding to one person, ska invita.

i am interested by 'our current immigration problems'. what do these problems consist of?

The same ones Ska Invita referred to.

 

[Pickman's model]

I actually came here to ask what, if any, impact people think the attack in Nice last night might have over bere


The same ones Ska Invita referred to.

he hasn't mentioned immigration on this thread since june 28.

what do YOU mean by 'our current immigration problems'?

 

[Treacle Toes]

he hasn't mentioned immigration on this thread since june 28.

what do YOU mean by 'our current immigration problems'?

ska invita directly refers to migration/movement of people and the issues with regard attitudes towards that in his posts above.

You may want Anju to explain his views to you but don't be disingenuous about what other people have posted in your attempts to belittle someone.

 

[Anju]

he hasn't mentioned immigration on this thread since june 28.

what do YOU mean by 'our current immigration problems'?

He mentioned migrants and racism, the unprecedented numbers of immigrants.

These are problems and I called them immigration problems because they are just that. Problems related to immigration being used by some people to divide us.

Please stop deliberately misinterpreting things.

 

[Pickman's model]

ska invita directly refers to migration/movement of people and the issues with regard attitudes towards that in his posts above.

You may want Anju to explain his views to you but don't be disingenuous about what other people have posted in your attempts to belittle someone.

yes, i saw where this morning ska invita posted about the unprecedented migrant crisis.

what i would like anju to do is explain what he meant by his phrase 'our immigration problems'.

 

[Pickman's model]

He mentioned migrants and racism, the unprecedented numbers of immigrants.

These are problems and I called them immigration problems because they are just that. Problems related to immigration being used by some people to divide us.

Please stop deliberately misinterpreting things.

i haven't misinterpreted anything you have said, i have simply asked what you meant by them. please don't be dishonest.

 

[Anju]

Was not sure where to post this. It is post referendum and anti racism but also anti austerity and calling for a GE. About 2.6k have said they will attend and another 3k interested. Please post details elsewhere if you think worthwhile.

Saturday 16 July. 12pm BBC HQ. Portland Place, W1A 1AA

 

[belboid]

Nope, I don't get this thing of sticking racist behaviours in neat boxes - one labeled "mild" and the other "hard," one annoying but harmless, the other a big deal. It's not like there are only two extremes with plenty fresh air in between, or some objective way of deciding what's okay and what's not.

hang on, sorry, but I have never said that one was 'harmless' not in any way shape or form. My point is simply that not everyone who holds some racist opinions is a total scumbag who can't be argued with and won over. If we treat everyone the same, we are at risk of pushing those 'soft' racists into the hardened camp. I appreciate why you are not keen on my terminology, and if you can think of a better one, great.

It's more like a continuum. The difference between behaviour at one point and the next step along may seem too small to make much difference. That's how behaviours deemed to be "acceptable" can creep towards the more extreme end without being massively noticeable. The more people do stuff seen as "no big shakes" without any sanction, the more they'll push the boundaries towards that more extreme end.

The first sentence is pretty much what I was trying to say. But the second sentence doesn't follow. those smaller slights must absolutely challenged and argued against, they should absolutely not be dismissed as 'no big shakes.' But they shouldn't simply be dismissed as not worth arguing with, like we would with the likes of Nick Griffin.

Anybody familiar with Allport's Scale of Oppression? It's still really simplified and the layers overlap and can depend on context, but shows how actions can escalate given the right circumstances and if not challenged

Thinking about it, the only "benefit" I can think of trying to split behaviours into "no big deal" and "big deal" is it gives the people not affected by racism the excuse to dismiss and ignore the experiences of those who DO, so long as they can argue those experiences fit in the "no big deal" box. Lovely.

Looks very much like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, with similar issues (notably the ones you have noted). It does also have the fault that, whereas with Maslow, the bottom was simply the bottom, without that base layer [physiological needs] we would simply die, whereas this has a bottom that we want to reject. Where is the layer showing people who dont exhibit oppressive behaviour? Why do people move from there to the bottom (shown) layer? That's a pretty big omission, imo. Again, tho, I have to point out that at no point, and in no way, do I say that the attacks that have taken place, or any attack, is 'no big deal', that is utterly and wholly wrong.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My point here is that to conflate the effects of racism, with the motivation (that someone is racist) which doesn't change, and create a hierarchy in the way that both directly and indirectly feeds the narrative that over the course of my lifetime has given us such dismissive gems as:

Sticks and stones...
It's only words...
You should count yourself lucky because in x place...
Grow a thicker skin...
It could be worse...
It's no big deal...
What you making such a fuss about...

You've taken what I said a step or two further than what I meant; and I'm not sure that there's any actual disagreement between us.

Racist thoughts, ideas and actions can and do exist along a continuum. None of it is right, nor is any of it acceptable. And it's a worthy and necessary task to try and eliminate all of it.

But given what's happened in human history so far, I'm not optimistic that all racism and xenophobia can be erased from the human psyche.

As a member of a group that has been and is targeted by racist thoughts and actions, I despair of the fact that myself and my family ever have to be subjected to any racism in any form.

But having said that, I am in fact glad that we as a mixed-race family live in Canada in 2016, and not in Selma Alabama in 1965.

It is better here in Canada in 2016 than it was there and then. It's not perfect by a long shot, but it's better.

 

[Anju]

Not really relevant to brexit but there were no threads I could see that were any better than this one. Apparently you can now pop to Bond Street and buy one of these, if you have a few hundred pounds to spare.

 

[sealion]

Not really relevant to brexit but there were no threads I could see that were any better than this one. Apparently you can now pop to Bond Street and buy one of these, if you have a few hundred pounds to spare.
View attachment 89661

What shop are selling these?