Peak Oil (was "petroleum geologist explains US war policy")
- Thread starter Bernie_Gunther
- Start date
80% of solar panels don't use rare-earth metals.
They are not needed in electric motors either.
Plus rare-earth metals are not even 'rare' as in they can't be found. They are called rare because they are not as widely used as other metals.
The only reason China dominates production is because they produce them cheaper than anyone else.
They are not needed in electric motors either.
Plus rare-earth metals are not even 'rare' as in they can't be found. They are called rare because they are not as widely used as other metals.
The only reason China dominates production is because they produce them cheaper than anyone else.
You don't seem to grasp that an inadequate quantity of energy doesn't become an adequate quantity of energy by virtue of passing through a series of energy intensive processes which are, to you, indistinguishable from magic.
I'm not referring to rare earth metals. I'm referring to the ordinary metals from which the truck that mined the gypsum from which the cement that bonded the bricks that created the facility which produced the industrial oxygen with which the silicon which made the substrate for the chip which controlled the power inverter was smelted.
Go tell that to the guys at Fukushima (currently using mainly US robots because the Japanese robots... didn't work.)
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I'm not advocating no world trade, just reduced volumes of it to get rid of the superfluous journeys like bottled water being transported from canada to uk and from UK to Canada, or in PV terms, transport the cells to the UK for fabrication into panels as one of our suppliers (UK glass manufacturer is doing) to reduce the volume being shipped around the world.
No it's you who can't grasp the concept that technology keeps developing and changing.
Oil is used primarily for heating and transport.
Both are replaceable by electricity.
Do you understand about the ships now? Has that finally sunk in?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
hardly any solar PV panels use any rare earth metals at all - they're mostly based on 2 of the worlds most abundant elements - silicon and aluminium, plus copper for the wires, and maybe some stainless steel for the brackets and bolts.
Some of the thin film panels use stuff like cadmium, and a few use gallium doping, which is about the closest you'll get to rare earths.
If you want to talk rare earth issues for renewables, then you need to be looking at wind turbines.
Technology - you mean that incredibly energy intensive product of the hydrocarbon powered, energy intensive, highly distributed, global industrial manufacturing process? Or are you referring to some other sort?
Electricity, like hydrogen, is a (lossy) energy carrier. It is not an energy source. You appear to be unaware of the significance of that statement.
No, do explain why burning gas to electrolyse water to create hydrogen to create methane is more thermally efficient than burning gas to power the ships engines directly?
Oh, and do explain where the gas is stored, and how the energy wasted in the compression and decompression of the gas (the Joules Thomson effect) is accounted for in your thermodynamic path?
Or perhaps you are suggesting its (low power) application on space stations, and hypothetical (low power) application on mars, in which the electrolysis is powered by sunlight - in which case, do explain where the convertors are placed on the boat, and what size they have to be? Or, if they are on land, how the ship is connected?
No - I believe it hasn't quite sunk in yet.
And plastics / chemical feedstocks, solvents, etc.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
You go away and do some sums.
They've all been set out for you. You just need some readily-available constants, a calculator and a willingness to learn.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
Personally I think it will be an incredibly long time before we're entirely out of oil and gas, so I expect to continue to see oil used to fuel ships and planes for as long as I live.
I expect that reductions in oil consumption will result largely from reductions in oil consumption for power generation, heating and land based transport first, with partial substitution from renewable energy, partial energy efficiency savings, partial substitution (eg public transport, bike, walking) and partial demand destruction through higher prices preventing people from travelling as far for none essential journeys as they previously have done.
At least I hope that's what will happen, it's certainly what needs to happen to preserve as much remaining oil as possible for the more vital uses for future generations / reduce the scale and impact of AGW.
I expect that reductions in oil consumption will result largely from reductions in oil consumption for power generation, heating and land based transport first, with partial substitution from renewable energy, partial energy efficiency savings, partial substitution (eg public transport, bike, walking) and partial demand destruction through higher prices preventing people from travelling as far for none essential journeys as they previously have done.
At least I hope that's what will happen, it's certainly what needs to happen to preserve as much remaining oil as possible for the more vital uses for future generations / reduce the scale and impact of AGW.
I'm not sure anyone has shared that expectation with that 80% of the earth's population who get by on less than 20% of your energy consumption and are rather looking forward to getting to 50%.
gosub
~#
Birds of prey. Liked that at the time. Monty the terrible cunt as hero.
Re commercial shipping - perfect use for thorium though I applaud the development of kite sails.
Re oil reckon I'll see algae based jet fuel as commercially viable in my lifetime and it's not cheap and I'm 40 and smoke
Re commercial shipping - perfect use for thorium though I applaud the development of kite sails.
Re oil reckon I'll see algae based jet fuel as commercially viable in my lifetime and it's not cheap and I'm 40 and smoke
free spirit
more tea vicar?
yeah well, I'm not envisaging we'll be getting to a utopian paradise of absolute equality in energy consumption within my lifetime either.
Not that we should ever have absolute energy equality anyway IMO, as different parts of the world need different energy levels for heating, lighting, cooling etc than others to achieve the same standard of living.
Plus those countries who've not already embeded high levels of transport and energy consumption in their city planning have the potential to skip the fossil fuel dependent driving everywhere to get to anything excesses of the likes of LA, and develop with integrated public transport, cycling and walking prioritised with local shops, schools, work etc. And this is happening to some extent, with eg the Chinese now (or very soon) buying more electric bikes than cars, for example.
I'm also not really sure what that's got to do with planes and ships still being fueled by oil mind.
In very many parts of the world, you can sit out under the open sky all day and still be pale blue. And that's because sunlight is very diffuse. Forgetting that leads to some comical outcomes of sloppy thinking:
By that stage, we'll have much better use for agricultural grade land twice the size of Belgium - like replacing the 75% of our current food supply which depends on hydrocarbon.
You cannot run jet engines on sunlight, summer breezes, and liquified peasant food. For that, you need the product of a few million years of sunlight captured by a few million square kilometres of algae and processed by a few quintillion watts of geological power - oil.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I never saw it originally, but after hearing about it on some 'top 100 tv dramas' thing I got it on DVD and saved it for a special occasion. When I finally watched it I was slightly gutted by quite how silly it was. That scene however was hilarious and just about salvaged it for me.
gosub
~#
Richard Branson was never going to save the world. Lest we forget (went fishing with Trevor a couple of times)
http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/STO/Programs/Biofuels.aspx
http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/STO/Programs/Biofuels.aspx
There are already many plants around the world producing hydrogen by the electrolysis of water. The USA produces 4% of it's supply by this means. The only reason it isn't more widespread is because getting hydrogen from natural gas is cheaper.
With increasing amounts of surplus renewable electricity becoming available the economics will shift in favour of electrolysis.
http://www.siemens.com/innovation/apps/pof_microsite/_pof-spring-2012/_html_en/electrolysis.html
With increasing amounts of surplus renewable electricity becoming available the economics will shift in favour of electrolysis.
http://www.siemens.com/innovation/apps/pof_microsite/_pof-spring-2012/_html_en/electrolysis.html
That's nice. The hydrogen is being used as a carrier. It requires energy to produce the hydrogen. The energy released by the combustion of the hydrogen is less than the energy required to produce it. We have less energy available to us after the process than we had before it.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen may have a role to play but you have to ask why the much touted 'hydrogen economy' that some used as the great hope decades ago went nowhere fast. This time around there are very few indications that those who are planning for a different world think they can scale hydrogen up to simply replace the fuels we are going to lose.
Just spotted this:
The age of mega-abundance - when anyone talking about Limits To Growth was dismissed as crazy, some sort of communist or one of the enemy within.
From Thatcher: The Oily Lady
The age of mega-abundance - when anyone talking about Limits To Growth was dismissed as crazy, some sort of communist or one of the enemy within.
gosub
~#
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