Palestine solidarity demos in the UK

[Kevbad the Bad]

Political borders are nearly always arbitrary to some extent (maybe not Iceland) but rarely chosen or decided upon by any of the inhabitants of particular areas of land. The peoples of the Middle East never got to decide anything before WW1, didn't decide anything after WW1 either. Of course the leaders of the major powers, and some minor ones. make everything worse. They always have.

 

[Gramsci]

How come 95 per cent of those marchers were arabs and other muslims? I watched that march go by in Kensington for about half an hour and did not see many other types of people there. It seemed to be almost all muslims plus a few thousand leftists.

I was there. Majority of the young people at demo were British imo. I did chat a bit to ask permission to take photos. Just because they are dark skinned, wear head scarves does not mean they are any less British than me.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't disagree with you on that. I'm just making the point that the divisions caused by religion, especially the militant kind of religion too often on display in the Middle East, make the finding of solutions and common ground so much more difficult. Conflicts all over the globe are caused or aggravated by super powers, arbitrary borders, disputes about resources, and all manner of stuff. Religious divisions just make it a whole lot worse, sometimes.

I've met a few people from Middle East in London here studying English. One thing they all say is that the Palestinians are their brothers who have been wrongly kicked off their land.

This feeling of support goes beyond local national borders. Its not about religion or supporting the ruling class. The ones I've known are secular, don't like the socially Conservative Islamist parties and are critical of the ruling establishments in their countries.

 

[Southlondon]

You may not agree but I think most people would accept that religion contributes substantially to the problems of much of the Middle East. (I would say it contributes to many other problems around the world as well). Fundamentalist Muslims. Zionist Jews. The Shia/Sunni divide. Christian/Muslim/Druze conflicts in Lebanon. Islamic Jihad. Persecution of Yezidis, Yasanis, Baha'i, Alevis, Assyrians etc. Religion is rarely the only cause of conflict, but in religious societies it generates fault lines which are difficult to circumvent.

Don’t get me wrong I’m passionately anti-religion, but the main issue in Palestine is the fact that the Zionist’s believe it’s their right to occupy another people’s lands, drive many out of their homes and country, defy International law to occupy the slithers of land they’d allowed the indigenous people to keep, destroy ancient olive groves that had supported families for generations, create 2 levels of citizenship with anyone other than a Jew enjoying less privileges and being subject to separate laws and restrictions on their movements in what appears to me to be a form of apartheid. It’s religion in the sense that it’s a Jewish religious country, but as far as I’m aware the Palestinians don’t have separate laws and rights for non-Muslims in their country it’s simply that they want to be able to live in the country of their birth as opposed to refugee camps, and for the Israelis to at least fuck off back to the borders agreed under international law.
the Palestinians must be given the right to return from their exile, and to not have to live under the boot of a militarised racist state

 

[Gramsci]

Depends on the comparison being made. I think one comparison between Britain and Israel that holds up is that, when I've asked for an explanation of why people think Israelis would never be able to identify with Palestinians instead of their own ruling class, the only actual answer I've ever got is a sort of soft-third-worldist one, that Israelis benefit too much from imperialism and inequality to want to give it up. I think it's worth pursuing that line of thought/questioning, because I'm not sure that Israel is a bigger player in imperialism or benefits more from it than the UK does.
Aside from that, there is also one corner of the territory ruled over by the British state where we could maybe make a more direct comparison. I don't claim to be a great expert on the Six Counties or anything, but I reckon that, even if it's perhaps less the case now, there's definitely been times in the relatively recent past when it's been hard to imagine what Protestant and Catholic workers could have in common with each other. But I think there are still common interests there, just as there are in the even more fraught Israel-Palestine situation.

As for the other bit - as I've explained, I was thinking as much about "why Israelis might be able to identify with Palestinians rather than the national interest" as with the same question for Palestinians, if not more so. But I think it's a bit weak to just shrug off any possibility of critiquing nationalism among Palestinians as well - a people who are oppressed can react or resist in all sorts of ways, some of them more nationalistic, others less so.

One reason Israeli might not identify is due to growing up in an Apartheid state. Whole generation of Israelis have grown up in the new state now. I worked with an Israeli for short time. His family were Holocaust survivors. He was born in Israel. He never said much about Palestinians. What he did complain about was the religious settlers. He loathed them. Had nothing in common with them. He had no interest in religion. But when he was called up had to guard their settlements.

He never said much about Palestinians. You can't really identify with people you don't met as the state is set up to separate people. So you don't know them.

The other thing that I was reminded of as the military Historian Beevor. On the Spanish Civil War he talks about why people fight. One thing that does drive people to fight is fear. It comes across in Benny Morris. The historian I mentioned earlier. Whilst saying the Israel was founded on violence he argued that a compromise with Palestinians would only lead to them wanting more. Slippery slope to getting rid of all the Jews.

So it is not so much imperialism as for a Israeli born Jew wanting to defend their home. I'd say an element of it goes to more basic level. Not a criticism.

This is seeing it from the ordinary person in the street side of things.

 

[Pickman's model]

Political borders are nearly always arbitrary to some extent (maybe not Iceland) but rarely chosen or decided upon by any of the inhabitants of particular areas of land. The peoples of the Middle East never got to decide anything before WW1, didn't decide anything after WW1 either. Of course the leaders of the major powers, and some minor ones. make everything worse. They always have.

Yeh after ww1 when the British and French had it all stitched up as per the s-p agreement mentioned and when the RAF used poison gas against insurgents not much chance of their having the say, what? Nice to see you agree with me about borders tho

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

There seems to be a lot of doubt about British use of poison gas in Iraq. Gas was used in Gaza against the Ottoman army during WW1, but not after that against insurgents. Not that Churchill was at all squeamish about its use. They just never got around to using it.

Alleged British use of chemical weapons in Mesopotamia in 1920 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[[62]]

I worked with an Israeli for short time. His family were Holocaust survivors. He was born in Israel. He never said much about Palestinians. What he did complain about was the religious settlers. He loathed them. Had nothing in common with them. He had no interest in religion. But when he was called up had to guard their settlements.

Yes, one thing that rarely gets reported is how much secular, coastal (i.e Tel Aviv and surrounds) Israelis detest the settlers. A lot of the 'support' for them is a backhanded desire to keep them as far away as possible.

 

[Southlondon]

Yes, one thing that rarely gets reported is how much secular, coastal (i.e Tel Aviv and surrounds) Israelis detest the settlers. A lot of the 'support' for them is a backhanded desire to keep them as far away as possible.

The trouble is secular Jews and their more liberal views are discounted in Israel as they are in England. We have the absurd situation where amongst the Labour Party members who are taking the party to court over their totally unjustifiable suspensions are 80 year old Jewish people whos parents were forced to flee Europe from the nazis. They spent a lifetime as Labour Party activists fighting for a fairer and more just society yet have been suspended for antisemitism, a Jewish professor and others of long-standing activism within the Jewish secular community .
I know a lot of Jewish people who will talk of their Jewish heritage yet will strongly speak out against Israeli apartheid and the occupation of Palestine. The Jewish board of deputies does nothing represent these Jews and the Labour Party accuses them. If antisemitism. There were plenty of Jews on the massive Palestinian rally at weekend yet the media and the vocal Zionist lobby from the will only talk about the handful of antisemites that also attended and would have been marginalised by the majority of the demonstration. People are gagged if they are Labour Party members from criticising Israel for being a racist violent militarised state that should be forced to obey international law under threat of expulsion. Those Jewish members who are taking the party to court are legally prevented from talking about the case but unlike me are remaining in the party that they have been lifetime activists in, as they refuse to be labelled antisemites and silenced by a party leadership in thrall to the Zionist cheer leaders. Maureen lipman can resign as many times as she likes but Jewish people who do not support the racist state of Israel as they bomb people’s homes and commit terror against the Palestinians have as much right for their voices to be heard, as the racist Israelis do.
It is apartheid happening on our watch. Nelson Mandela recognised it for what it is, but under current Labour Party rules he would have been suspended if he was a member.

 

[BillRiver]

Loved for the articulate description of reality, thank you, not for what it described obvs.

 

[platinumsage]

I don't get the fetishization of the "pre-67" borders in Israel. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Golan Heights ought to be handed over to Assad? Because that's what it would mean.

 

[Southlondon]

I don't get the fetishization of the "pre-67" borders in Israel. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Golan Heights ought to be handed over to Assad? Because that's what it would mean.

Put the golan heights to one side ( although it’s annexation through war by Israel was condemned by the United Nations security council), and let’s concentrate on the million or there abouts dispossessed Palestinians who have been languishing in refugee camps for decades, and who have a right to return to their ancestral homeland, and the Palestinians living in Israeli occupied territories. Under international law it is their homeland snd Israel has no right under international law to occupy those territories. Then there’s the Palestinians living in Gaza. The Israelis even control their water supply and cut it off at times to inflict suffering. They get about 4 hours of electricity a day, are without medicines and other essentials and have a far shorter life expectancy than their Zionist opponents.
There had to be a point where the borders are defined if the Palestinians are to be able to live in their own country, and if there’s to be a 2 state solution the Zionists will have to leave their illegal settlements and return the land to the rightful owners who lived there for generations until the arrival of the European zionists. Unless you support the idea that powerful nuclear armed countries should be allowed to invade other countries , subjugate the indigenous population and annex the territories against the will of the international community committing war crimes as they go, then we should support the right of the refugees to return to their homes and for the Palestinians in occupied territories to resist the occupation by any means necessary

 

[BillRiver]

Request from Campaign Against Arms Trade to email your MP about UK arms to Israel (takes a coupla minutes max using their template):

CAAT - Stop Arming Israel: Email Your MP

 

[Shechemite]

The trouble is secular Jews and their more liberal views are discounted in Israel as they are in England. We have the absurd situation where amongst the Labour Party members who are taking the party to court over their totally unjustifiable suspensions are 80 year old Jewish people whos parents were forced to flee Europe from the nazis. They spent a lifetime as Labour Party activists fighting for a fairer and more just society yet have been suspended for antisemitism, a Jewish professor and others of long-standing activism within the Jewish secular community .
I know a lot of Jewish people who will talk of their Jewish heritage yet will strongly speak out against Israeli apartheid and the occupation of Palestine. The Jewish board of deputies does nothing represent these Jews and the Labour Party accuses them. If antisemitism. There were plenty of Jews on the massive Palestinian rally at weekend yet the media and the vocal Zionist lobby from the will only talk about the handful of antisemites that also attended and would have been marginalised by the majority of the demonstration. People are gagged if they are Labour Party members from criticising Israel for being a racist violent militarised state that should be forced to obey international law under threat of expulsion. Those Jewish members who are taking the party to court are legally prevented from talking about the case but unlike me are remaining in the party that they have been lifetime activists in, as they refuse to be labelled antisemites and silenced by a party leadership in thrall to the Zionist cheer leaders. Maureen lipman can resign as many times as she likes but Jewish people who do not support the racist state of Israel as they bomb people’s homes and commit terror against the Palestinians have as much right for their voices to be heard, as the racist Israelis do.
It is apartheid happening on our watch. Nelson Mandela recognised it for what it is, but under current Labour Party rules he would have been suspended if he was a member.

jews on your mind a lot?

 

[Shechemite]

Move along nothing to see here

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/watch-muslim-men-film-themselves-targeting-jews-for-their-views-on-child-killing-in-israel-1.517087

Police officer is filmed ignoring ‘we’ll find Jews, we want blood’ death threats

Met Police launches investigation into sickening video, while in another clip a man shows off 'anti-Jewish' shoes, featuring torn pieces of the Israeli flag.

jewishnews.timesofisrael.com

 

[editor]

From Sunday

In photos: Palestine rally at Brockwell Park gate, Sunday 30th May

On Sunday, Lambeth and Wandsworth PSC (Palestine Solidarity Campaign) – also known as @BrixtonPSC – held another rally at Brockwell Gate. The rally was to “encourage everyone to …

www.brixtonbuzz.com

 

[Southlondon]

jews on your mind a lot?

It’s quite relevant when discussing the war crimes committed by the state of Israel. I was commenting on how the opinions of secular Jewish people or those who are not Zionists, seem to get shunted aside and and are somehow not as meaningful or valid as those from the Zionist Jews when the Israeli government decides to continually flaunt international law and deny the Palestinians the right to ln their own country free of occupation.
Jews are ‘on my mind’ because the thread is about Palestine, and it is a Jewish state that is blowing up their homes and killing their people, and i was pointing out that there are also many Jews in Israel and beyond who, like me thinks it’s abhorrent. It’s a shame that life long Jewish members of the Labour Party have to resort to legal action to prevent their membership being ended and voices silenced due to the actions of Israel-apologists

 

[Shechemite]

I dunno, seems like a lot of Jewish people put off getting involved in Palestinian solidarity stuff to avoid people like you

 

[Shechemite]

Which is a shame really.

 

[Southlondon]

Which is a shame really.

But a lot of Jewish people do do an awful lot to support Palestinian rights, and that’s encouraging

 

[Shechemite]

Yes. Good people like frogwoman

 

[Gramsci]

From Sunday

In photos: Palestine rally at Brockwell Park gate, Sunday 30th May

On Sunday, Lambeth and Wandsworth PSC (Palestine Solidarity Campaign) – also known as @BrixtonPSC – held another rally at Brockwell Gate. The rally was to “encourage everyone to …

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Thanks for putting this on Brixton Buzz. I know its been helpful to my local PSC group.

I missed it as I'd had my second Vaccine jab and didn't feel up to it.

Heard it was a good turnout. A mixed crowd and lot of support from passers buy.

 

[hitmouse]

Another occupation:

 

[hitmouse]

 

[BCBlues]

Live updates- Police called as protesters climb onto factory roof of Arconic site in Kitts Green Police at scene as protesters climb onto city factory roof

Double protest here as Arconic are deeply involved in the deaths of people in the Grenfell Tower fire.

 

[hitmouse]

Statement from a former Arconic employee here:

Former employee blows the whistle on Arconic's crimes

Hi there, I am a former employee of Arconic at the Kitts Green site which has today, on the anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire, been taken over by some […]

palestineaction.org

 

[hash tag]

This is near the American Embassy in Nine Elms. A major road is closed as a 69 year old man protests from the end of the jib of a crane You searched for - 999live.co.uk

 

[hitmouse]

West Midlands filth out making friends at the Arconic site today:

 

[hitmouse]

Keeping an impressive run going:

Palestine Action Strikes Again: Elbit-Ferranti Oldham Shut Down

At 6:30am this morning, activists stormed and occupied the site of Elbit Ferranti in Oldham, evading a heavy security presence and rapid police response, to successfully shut down the factory.

palestineaction.org

 

[Gramsci]

In photos: XR/Brixton Palestine Solidarity Campaign demo outside Brockwell Park, Sunday 20th June

Lambeth and Wandsworth Palestine Solidarity Campaign (also now BrixtonPSC ) had another demonstration on Sunday to publicise the ongoing catastrophe of life in Palestine under occupation.

www.brixtonbuzz.com

My local PSC are doing regular demos in my area now.

The plan is to have a regular presence at Brockwell Park Gate over the coming months to keep alive the spirit of resistance and to widen their reach in the community .