Now Spain wants a piece of the action over Gibraltar - no deal it is then

[agricola]

Does it so why have we been fighting in Afghanistan and the middle east for 10 years plus. With 9/11, Syria, Libya, Yemen Isis( anything I left out?) Russia invading Ukraine turning out to be a complete surprise and everything the west did as wrong or made things so much worse?
I think pensioning the intelligence community of and giving the job to mystic Meg would save us a ton of money. Problem with all this cloak and dagger stuck we have no idea what they get up to is any use.

The problem is not necessarily the intelligence community, its that our leaders pay no heed to anything that they say that objects to the leaders' narrative or policy choices.

I mean, we know Blair was told on several occasions what invading Iraq would result in; he sent the troops in anyway. Cameron was almost given the same warnings about Libya and Syria but only managed to get his way once, and with regards to Russia we have seen repeated acts (rather than intelligence assessments) including murders that have not been responded to in any kind of effective way. In Yemen's case we are actually supplying the weapons. None of these are intelligence failures (or rather, failures of the intelligence community).

 

[T & P]

The spiteful people here who want the British government to sell out the Gibraltarians may like this poster.

(I live in Ciudad Lineal - it's a district of Madrid - and I never see posters from this particular remnant of Spanish Fascism. People of that sort probably vote for Vox nowadays.)

I am Spanish and in my lifelong experience the position of Spaniards regarding the status of Gibraltar transcends politics. The overwhelming majority deeply resent British sovereignty and would like the Rock to return to Spanish sovereignty regardless of their political leanings. And that includes a great many Podemos/ left wing voters. Admittedly what should be done about it (if anything at all) is where opinions might differ on the matter.

Ironically, the ‘look what company you’d be in if you support this position’ line of argument is something Remainers have used extensively when debating Brexit with Leave supporters. But I guess fair is fair.

 

[likesfish]

so how do you justify the enclaves in Morrocco?

 

[krtek a houby]

Really? Violent uprising by self-important killers who thought their cause permitted them to murder.



Nah.



Romantic shite.... although standing on the post office threshold with the bullet holes still visible it's hard not to romanticise I grant you.

It's not romantic, it was essential & it eventually led to independence. Sometimes oppression and colonialism will lead to that sort of thing.

 

[Cheesepig3]

It's not romantic, it was essential & it eventually led to independence. Sometimes oppression and colonialism will lead to that sort of thing.

Essential? Really? ...but that sort of thing demonstrably can be avoided with results that also lead to independence.


So the killers with a sense of moral superiority are exposed as narcissistic fuckpigs.

 

[krtek a houby]

Essential? Really? ...but that sort of thing demonstrably can be avoided with results that also lead to independence.


So the killers with a sense of moral superiority are exposed as narcissistic fuckpigs.

Are you talking about the British military or the Irish people?

What would you have them done? Wait another few centuries?

Nothing narcissistic about kicking out the oppressors.

 

[T & P]

so how do you justify the enclaves in Morrocco?

I don't. It's double standards and they should be returned to Morocco.

 

[Cheesepig3]

Are you talking about the British military or the Irish people?

What would you have them done? Wait another few centuries?

Nothing narcissistic about kicking out the oppressors.

Are you kidding?


Violent revolution is what narcissists do because-oooh they're just so much better than the people who die for their version of the future.

"The Irish people " didn't start shooting, a small group of violent aggressors did.

Effectively their position is "I'm really cross so I'll just kill some people now".


Teenager with gun.

 

[krtek a houby]

Are you kidding?


Violent revolution is what narcissists do because-oooh they're just so much better than the people who die for their version of the future.

"The Irish people " didn't start shooting, a small group of violent aggressors did.

Effectively their position is "I'm really cross so I'll just kill some people now".


Teenager with gun.

What gun are you on about?

What would you have done if your country had been oppressed and maimed and starved for so long? It's culture and religion almost wiped out and its land stolen?

The men and women of 1916 were heroes - your somewhat childish dismissal of them is the typical language of the colonial we-know-better sort.

I thought for so many years that everything could be hunky-dory with non-violence. But I was in denial. Sometimes, unpalatable as it is, it takes action to see a change.

 

[Raheem]

I don't. It's double standards and they should be returned to Morocco.

UK, Spain, Morocco, Western Sahara.

I've just invented a new game.

Gonna call it "six degrees of occupation".

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Essential? Really? ...but that sort of thing demonstrably can be avoided with results that also lead to independence.
So the killers with a sense of moral superiority are exposed as narcissistic fuckpigs.

Rewriting history in hindsight are we?
The "If only" game....eh?

Well...if only Britain he not invaded Ireland and split up parcels of land in plantations...and left the Irish with not enough food (bar potatoes)...if only the British government had not let 1.5 million of their supposed "own people" to starve.
If only....eh?

A small band of men set about a tiny uprising. And oh...if only the British government had just arrested them..but no. They had to go ahead and arrest thousands of innocent people and then they had to stupidly execute the leaders and innocents too thereby drawing thousands of previously uninterested Irish into a bloody fight....war....whatever you want to call it.

If only the British had not
authorised the invasion of Croke park by tanks and shot up innocent people out for a day of sport. 11 murdered....while watching a game of gaelic football. 60 injured...3 died later... if only they had not done that.

No romance ... just murder of the innocent..by the people who were supposedly ruling and governing Ireland. The ones you seem to think could have been reasoned with towards a free state. Nah. That wasn't going to happen. Not with the Great War demanding more cannon fodder.

The Easter Rising of 1916 would have been a footnote in history only for Maxwell being allowed to carry out executions and the subsequent extremely violent decisions made by, once again, the British Government. You're also conveniently forgetting the civil war aren't you? Black and Tans...where did they come from eh? Murdering bastards....

Are you kidding?
Violent obliteration is what the British government and army do because-oooh they're just so much better than the people who die for their version of the future.

ftfy

I'm afraid your isolationist revision of history is flawed.

The Easter Rising was itself military unsuccessful but the subsequent aftermath transformed this country and its people. Eventually leading to an independent republic.

Might be worth reading this
1916 Rising | The Irish Times Easter Rising Commemoration

 

[cupid_stunt]

The Easter Rising of 1916 ..

Little known fact, and ideal if you are ever setting pub quiz questions, one of the leaders of the rising was Michael Joseph O'Rahilly, often known just as The O'Rahilly, his grandson, Ronan O'Rahilly, went on to become a torn in the side of the British government during the 60's, 70s & 80s, by setting-up the offshore pirate Radio Caroline, first broadcast from international waters in '64 & last in '89, despite the Marine Offences Broadcasting Act of 1967, designed to silence the pirates.

 

[tim]

Maybe we could swap Catalonia for Gibralter?

Or cede it to Morocco.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And to be clear about what I’m saying there: identity tied to polity is nationalism.

We are seeing am increasingly fervent tide of right wing Euro-nationalism.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Really? Violent uprising by self-important killers who thought their cause permitted them to murder.



Nah.



Romantic shite.... although standing on the post office threshold with the bullet holes still visible it's hard not to romanticise I grant you.

Given your fantasies about democracy and peaceful change, you're in no position to accuse anyone of romantic shite.

 

[Pickman's model]

Little known fact, and ideal if you are ever setting pub quiz questions, one of the leaders of the rising was Michael Joseph O'Rahilly, often known just as The O'Rahilly, his grandson, Ronan O'Rahilly, went on to become a torn in the side of the British government during the 60's, 70s & 80s, by setting-up the offshore pirate Radio Caroline, first broadcast from international waters in '64 & last in '89, despite the Marine Offences Broadcasting Act of 1967, designed to silence the pirates.

woah there. the o'rahilly took part in the rising. but he wasn't one of the leaders of the rising.

 

[Pickman's model]

Little known fact, and ideal if you are ever setting pub quiz questions, one of the leaders of the rising was Michael Joseph O'Rahilly, often known just as The O'Rahilly, his grandson, Ronan O'Rahilly, went on to become a torn in the side of the British government during the 60's, 70s & 80s, by setting-up the offshore pirate Radio Caroline, first broadcast from international waters in '64 & last in '89, despite the Marine Offences Broadcasting Act of 1967, designed to silence the pirates.

The O'Rahilly - Wikipedia

 

[kabbes]

Maybe to make the Spanish feel better, we can give them the Isle of Wight to use as a tax haven, staging post and a way of exerting control on shipping through the English Channel.

 

[danny la rouge]

We are seeing am increasingly fervent tide of right wing Euro-nationalism.

“But Freedom of Movement!”

- Yes, for Europeans. And hand in hand with Fortress Europe.

 

[SpackleFrog]

“But Freedom of Movement!”

- Yes, for Europeans. And hand in hand with Fortress Europe.

Europe for the Europeans. Unless they're Europeans that aren't sufficiently patriotic about the Great European Project.

 

[danny la rouge]

Europe for the Europeans. Unless they're Europeans that aren't sufficiently patriotic about the Great European Project.

Who are racists.

 

[Yossarian]

Maybe to make the Spanish feel better, we can give them the Isle of Wight to use as a tax haven, staging post and a way of exerting control on shipping through the English Channel.

That could work out pretty well - the locals might jump at the chance to revive their smuggling industry, and a lot of people might be tempted to holiday on the Costa Del Llovizna...

 

[butchersapron]

Who are racists.

Not just any racist either, but old ones. And what's even worse, probably C2DE too.

 

[likesfish]

tbf the British government had rather more pressing matters on its hands in 1916

 

[cupid_stunt]

woah there. the o'rahilly took part in the rising. but he wasn't one of the leaders of the rising.

My mistake, although I posted the links, I worded my post from memory.

Although, in my defence - ' O'Rahilly volunteered to lead a party of men along a route to Williams and Woods, a factory on Great Britain Stree' - so sort of a 'leader'.

 

[Pickman's model]

My mistake, although I posted the links, I worded my post from memory.

Although, in my defence - ' O'Rahilly volunteered to lead a party of men along a route to Williams and Woods, a factory on Great Britain Stree' - so sort of a 'leader'.

in that case hitler was a leader of the german army during the first world war, being as he was a corporal

 

[Cheesepig3]

What gun are you on about?

What would you have done if your country had been oppressed and maimed and starved for so long? It's culture and religion almost wiped out and its land stolen?

The men and women of 1916 were heroes - your somewhat childish dismissal of them is the typical language of the colonial we-know-better sort.

I thought for so many years that everything could be hunky-dory with non-violence. But I was in denial. Sometimes, unpalatable as it is, it takes action to see a change.

I'm not a colonialist.


Can you generate a list of entirely innocent English or Australian people who are expendable in the violent transition from British to Irish rule in, say, Lisburn? Thanks.


Perhaps you can look at the nearest British person to you, imagine them with their entrails spread across a pile of smoking rubble and think "yeah, worth it to swop flags".

The Irish fighters of 1916 were, by orders of magnitude, mostly on the Western Front.

The rebels were undoubtedly very brave indeed and skilful fighters too.

Given the potential for Irish separation from Empire around the Edwardian period, their taking to violence was unjustified.

Didn't work out too well either, did it? How many died in the civil war compared to at British hands in the previous 50 years?

Those dreary rebel songs have got in to your brain mate. Terrorism is a bad thing not a good one.

 

[Cheesepig3]

Given your fantasies about democracy and peaceful change, you're in no position to accuse anyone of romantic shite.

I have no such fantasies.


Our democracy is very badly flawed.


I just don't think a forceful annexation of power by a group of well meaning self appointed people is better. It's worse.

 

[Cheesepig3]

Rewriting history in hindsight are we?
The "If only" game....eh?

Well...if only Britain he not invaded Ireland and split up parcels of land in plantations...and left the Irish with not enough food (bar potatoes)...if only the British government had not let 1.5 million of their supposed "own people" to starve.
If only....eh?

A small band of men set about a tiny uprising. And oh...if only the British government had just arrested them..but no. They had to go ahead and arrest thousands of innocent people and then they had to stupidly execute the leaders and innocents too thereby drawing thousands of previously uninterested Irish into a bloody fight....war....whatever you want to call it.

If only the British had not
authorised the invasion of Croke park by tanks and shot up innocent people out for a day of sport. 11 murdered....while watching a game of gaelic football. 60 injured...3 died later... if only they had not done that.

No romance ... just murder of the innocent..by the people who were supposedly ruling and governing Ireland. The ones you seem to think could have been reasoned with towards a free state. Nah. That wasn't going to happen. Not with the Great War demanding more cannon fodder.

The Easter Rising of 1916 would have been a footnote in history only for Maxwell being allowed to carry out executions and the subsequent extremely violent decisions made by, once again, the British Government. You're also conveniently forgetting the civil war aren't you? Black and Tans...where did they come from eh? Murdering bastards....

ftfy

I'm afraid your isolationist revision of history is flawed.

The Easter Rising was itself military unsuccessful but the subsequent aftermath transformed this country and its people. Eventually leading to an independent republic.

Might be worth reading this
1916 Rising | The Irish Times Easter Rising Commemoration

Should Britain have seen itself as some sort of divinely ordained empire of justice? No of course not.


Is it ok to kill, now, in reaction to injustice in previous centuries? No, of course not.

Please don't accuse me of rewriting history in a post where you yourself selectively use historical episodes in a partisan manner.

 

[Cheesepig3]

Not just any racist either, but old ones. And what's even worse, probably C2DE too.

They're droids???