Now Spain wants a piece of the action over Gibraltar - no deal it is then

[not-bono-ever]

gibraltar would revert to being a dusty sun baked monkey poop smeared shithole if it were not for their freewheeling take on business. Many gib based companies would not pass even the most basic UK levels of scrutiny. it is one of many- that doesnt make it any less culpable or excuse its wilful negligence.

 

[gosub]

Are you suggesting our government is in charge of Gibraltar?

And if functions are non-devlolved then as a citizen and tax payer, I have a right to a say in what happens to them, no? In contrast to your statement that only Gibralterians have the right to determine what happens to them:



Either Gibraltar is part of the British state and the British state is responsible for them, in which case I would expect full tax contribution, British law and British citizens to be included in saying what happens there, or it is not — it is a standalone territory with self-determination and it’s own tax base — in which case I do not see why Britain more than anybody else is responsible for defending it.

This idea that it is okay to have tax exempt protectorates that can wash money for their big brother and everybody else has to lump it is a big problem in the modern world. Why should I buy into it?

Um. At a guess the Americans would be more happy to relieve us of the 'burden' of Gibraltar though the recent deal with regards troop behaviour and civilian police did only specify British military personnel

 

[kabbes]

Um. At a guess the Americans would be more happy to relieve us of the 'burden' of Gibraltar though the recent deal with regards troop behaviour and civilian police did only specify British military personnel

Ok then. So what?

 

[stavros]

Other than those who use their economies, honourably or otherwise, what do those in the mainland UK get from the assorted small rocks around the world which Brenda presides over? The tax-funded public expenditure is presumably used to finance security operations to counter any aggression by Spaniards, Argentines, etc, so what purpose does that investment serve for the funders of it?

As we shuffle out of a multilateral arrangement, ostensibly based partly on our allegedly wasted financial input to that agreement, are there opportunities to do similar with the UK overseas territories in all their forms?

 

[danny la rouge]

so what purpose does that investment serve for the funders of it

Take a look at the map.

 

[stavros]

By the funders I meant the tax-paying population as a whole. What do they get from Gibraltar, the BVIs, the Caymans, the Falklands, etc, being under the Union flag?

 

[Supine]

By the funders I meant the tax-paying population as a whole. What do they get from Gibraltar, the BVIs, the Caymans, the Falklands, etc, being under the Union flag?

Historically they were part of our footprint in a global empire, but we seem to be moving to an isolationist little islander mentality.

 

[DexterTCN]

Has anyone asked Gibraltar?

They have about 24,000 voters.

Just over 19,000 voted remain, just over 800 voted leave.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

It is (or is that 'was'?) all about the sea. The string of places that Britain kept hold of, or tried to keep sweet, not always at all successfully, across the Med was Gib, Malta, Cyprus and Suez. Round the other side it included Aden and friendly Gulf regimes. The long way round was being nice to Portugal, Britain's oldest ally for a reason, so that meant friends in Madeira, the Azores and the Cape Verde islands. It also meant never really cutting South Africa adrift until the end of the Simon's Town agreement in the mid 70s. I'd bet that in a hot war SA would have discretely helped out after that too.

The policy obviously included expensive-to-keep little islands dotted around in strategic places in the middle of the oceans. Like Diego Garcia.

I like the story of a new Foreign Secretary asking the permanent secretary about policy. 'My dear chap, other countries have policies, we have long term strategic interests'.

Gibraltar fits into the strategy somehow. What it is may be buried in the Rock, for all we know. A linguist FOAF had a job which seemed to be listening to Russian trawler radio to pick up tittle-tattle, so it could be things like that.

I don't think it's just dodgy money, offshore banks, smuggling, and the wishes of the inhabitants that maintains UK presence there. It may be that we are helping out the US more than helping ourselves with the collection of useful little rocks that make up the Empire.

 

[krtek a houby]

I agree that Gibraltar has murkiness as a central part of it's being.

I actually tried to stop a smuggling operation there when posted to Gib in the mid 90s and was told in so many words to fuck off and mind my own business.


That was by a copper, I was on duty in uniform at the time....

Having said that, we are where we are and if you live in London you have absolutely no room to talk about the downside of money laundering now, do you?

Gibraltar's population is British with colonial caveats, they have their own defence force since the early 90s I believe, and we are in a defined mutual military protection arrangement with them

I always wondered how the murky murder of 3 unarmed Irish citizens played out in that there Gibraltar. It sounded like the wild west at the time

 

[ska invita]

It is (or is that 'was'?) all about the sea. The string of places that Britain kept hold of, or tried to keep sweet, not always at all successfully, across the Med was Gib, Malta, Cyprus and Suez. Round the other side it included Aden and friendly Gulf regimes. The long way round was being nice to Portugal, Britain's oldest ally for a reason, so that meant friends in Madeira, the Azores and the Cape Verde islands. It also meant never really cutting South Africa adrift until the end of the Simon's Town agreement in the mid 70s. I'd bet that in a hot war SA would have discretely helped out after that too.

The policy obviously included expensive-to-keep little islands dotted around in strategic places in the middle of the oceans. Like Diego Garcia.

I like the story of a new Foreign Secretary asking the permanent secretary about policy. 'My dear chap, other countries have policies, we have long term strategic interests'.

Gibraltar fits into the strategy somehow. What it is may be buried in the Rock, for all we know. A linguist FOAF had a job which seemed to be listening to Russian trawler radio to pick up tittle-tattle, so it could be things like that.

I don't think it's just dodgy money, offshore banks, smuggling, and the wishes of the inhabitants that maintains UK presence there. It may be that we are helping out the US more than helping ourselves with the collection of useful little rocks that make up the Empire.

Since no one has said it explicitly I'll say the obvious that these global footholds are Military strategic outposts of the empire.

 

[andysays]

Has anyone asked Gibraltar?

They have about 24,000 voters.

Just over 19,000 voted remain, just over 800 voted leave.

They were asked as part of the UK-wide referendum, in which the majority voted to Leave.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I always wondered how the murky murder of 3 unarmed Irish citizens played out in that there Gibraltar. It sounded like the wild west at the time

It was a single flawed operation, the SAS was only there to prevent an IRA attack, and the Gibraltar Police had only handed over operational control for about half an hour, not sure it's right comparing Gibraltar to the wild west over a one-off event, especially considering everything else that went on in NI & on the UK mainland during the troubles.

Of course, had the Semtex been in the car they parked in Gibraltar, instead of being in a different car that the Spanish police found some days later, still in Spain, it wouldn't have been particularly controversial.

 

[kabbes]

Since no one has said it explicitly I'll say the obvious that these global footholds are Military strategic outposts of the empire.

Indeed — something I couldn’t give the first crap about. Why do we think we need to police Southern Europe/Northern Africa?

 

[krtek a houby]

It was a single flawed operation, the SAS was only there to prevent an IRA attack, and the Gibraltar Police had only handed over operational control for about half an hour, not sure it's right comparing Gibraltar to the wild west over a one-off event, especially considering everything else that went on in NI & on the UK mainland during the troubles.

Of course, had the Semtex been in the car they parked in Gibraltar, instead of being in a different car that the Spanish police found some days later, still in Spain, it wouldn't have been particularly controversial.

Mmm. Didn't sink until years later (for me) the enormity of the shoot first response from the British forces. But I do remember the unease at the time.

Not that I condone what the 3 may have been up to. Anyways, hopefully Brexit will see the 6 counties (and maybe one day, Gibraltar) free from "mainland" influences.

 

[Sprocket.]

Indeed — something I couldn’t give the first crap about. Why do we think we need to police Southern Europe/Northern Africa?

Maybe thinking they need a base to protect our new, worldwide trade routes post Brexit.
Because we have plenty of rowing boats and catapults to deter foreign nations privateers.

ETA:

 

[ska invita]

Indeed — something I couldn’t give the first crap about. Why do we think we need to police Southern Europe/Northern Africa?

Don't you want Britannia to walk tall on the global battlefield?
Youve got to hand it to the old imperialists, they picked their worldwide military bases well.
Turns out Hong Kong was a bit too close to the mainland though.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

They were asked as part of the UK-wide referendum, in which the majority voted to Leave.

Staines has about twice the population of Gibraltar, has anyone asked Staines? Perhaps Dexter could pop down and ask ‘em and report back?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Mmm. Didn't sink until years later (for me) the enormity of the shoot first response from the British forces. But I do remember the unease at the time.

Not that I condone what the 3 may have been up to. Anyways, hopefully Brexit will see the 6 counties (and maybe one day, Gibraltar) free from "mainland" influences.

'May have been up to?' I don't think there was any question of what they were planning, they were known IRA members, travelling on false papers, one had the keys to the car that the Spanish police found a few days later, containing Semtex, timers, detonators, and rounds of ammunition. The cock-up was not arresting them at the border or earlier by the police, which led to the police handing over the operation to the SAS, making lethal force just about inevitable.

And, there wasn't really "mainland" influences involved in that case, it was the Gibraltar authorities that requested help from the UK, as they didn't feel the Gibraltar police had enough experience to deal with the threat, which clearly they didn't, considering they failed to spot them crossing the border. As the SAS was engaged with the IRA in the NI, it was fairly logical that the UK would send them as help, despite Gibraltar not specifically asking for them.

I certainly would like to see a united Ireland, once the majority in the north are in agreement. And, I apply the same principle to Gibraltar, as I am a firm believer in 'self-determination', you can't turn the clock back to before it became a UK territory & erase hundreds of years of history, change should only happen when a majority are in agreement.

 

[Cheesepig3]

Google Image Result for http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/covers/full/698_big.jpg

 

[Cheesepig3]

Indeed — something I couldn’t give the first crap about. Why do we think we need to police Southern Europe/Northern Africa?

The Gib base isn't there to police Southern Europe or North Africa.


It's a strategic base giving us and our allies a staging post, supply base and listening post.

Currently it looks redundant but times change and once it's gone it's gone for ever.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

They were asked as part of the UK-wide referendum, in which the majority voted to Leave.

Considering that there was a difference of about 1.3 million between Leave and Remain it's unfortunate that the long-term UK citizens who are resident in the EC were not allowed to vote.

Numbers are estimated at anything between 800,000 (grossly underestimated) and 1.8 million (over).

Let's split the difference and say... 1.3 million!

 

[brogdale]

The Gib base isn't there to police Southern Europe or North Africa.


It's a strategic base giving us and our allies a staging post, supply base and listening post.

Currently it looks redundant but times change and once it's gone it's gone for ever.

Not a problem; when we join the EUarmy we'll get access to the "listening" irrespective of who claims to own the rock.

 

[krtek a houby]

'May have been up to?' I don't think there was any question of what they were planning, they were known IRA members, travelling on false papers, one had the keys to the car that the Spanish police found a few days later, containing Semtex, timers, detonators, and rounds of ammunition. The cock-up was not arresting them at the border or earlier by the police, which led to the police handing over the operation to the SAS, making lethal force just about inevitable.

And, there wasn't really "mainland" influences involved in that case, it was the Gibraltar authorities that requested help from the UK, as they didn't feel the Gibraltar police had enough experience to deal with the threat, which clearly they didn't, considering they failed to spot them crossing the border. As the SAS was engaged with the IRA in the NI, it was fairly logical that the UK would send them as help, despite Gibraltar not specifically asking for them.

I certainly would like to see a united Ireland, once the majority in the north are in agreement. And, I apply the same principle to Gibraltar, as I am a firm believer in 'self-determination', you can't turn the clock back to before it became a UK territory & erase hundreds of years of history, change should only happen when a majority are in agreement.

Certainly. Despite their plans, it sits very uneasy that 3 unarmed people were shot dead. Anyway, don't wish to derail. As you were, etc.

 

[kabbes]

You don’t need a supply base and staging post if you aren’t trying to police the rest of the world.

 

[andysays]

Staines has about twice the population of Gibraltar, has anyone asked Staines? Perhaps Dexter could pop down and ask ‘em and report back?

Staines, like Gibraltar and also Scotland, is in the EU as a part of the UK, not in its own right, so there is no need to consult or count the votes of the population of Staines, Gibraltar or Scotland separate to the overall UK vote.

Dexter doesn't appear to realise this.

 

[DexterTCN]

They were asked as part of the UK-wide referendum, in which the majority voted to Leave.

Ah right. So Scotland, NI and Gibraltar all vote remain but we have to do what 'the majority' ie England and Wales say, gotchya. It's that kind of relationship.

Here's an idea worth considering...why don't E&W fuck off out the EU and leave the rest of us alone.

 

[andysays]

Ah right. So Scotland, NI and Gibraltar all vote remain but we have to do what 'the majority' ie England and Wales say, gotchya. It's that kind of relationship.

Here's an idea worth considering...why don't E&W fuck off out the EU and leave the rest of us alone.

If the populations of Scotland, NI or Gibraltar want to leave the UK, the remedy is in their hands, but for the time being they're all part of the UK and so have to accept what the majority of the UK population decides.

If it comes to a choice between in the UK but not the EU, or in the EU but not the UK, let's see what those populations actually decide, but until then your posts are redundant, TBH.

 

[danny la rouge]

Indeed — something I couldn’t give the first crap about. Why do we think we need to police Southern Europe/Northern Africa?

And this is where one has to interrogate what is meant by “we”. The question that was posed - “what is the benefit to the individual tax payer?” - is therefore not really the right question.

But I’m also bound to add: the military significance to the British state and its historic strategic interests may be why these outposts exist, but their use as tax havens for offshoring of the financial shenanigans of the elite is very much why the neoliberal establishment that dominates the levers of the apparatus of the state today still calls them “strategic”.

So the question isn’t why do you give a crap, but why do the powerful give a crap.

 

[Pickman's model]

If the populations of Scotland, NI or Gibraltar want to leave the UK, the remedy is in their hands, but for the time being they're all part of the UK and so have to accept what the majority of the UK population decides.

If it comes to a choice between in the UK but not the EU, or in the EU but not the UK, let's see what those populations actually decide, but until then your posts are redundant, TBH.

yeh, this is the problem when you have four constituent parts of the uk but don't have a chamber or means by which each of those four parts have an equal voice - one part will, as you say, always have the whip hand over the others whether the others are single or combined.