Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
The people who live there tend to have a rather different opinion.
Now Spain wants a piece of the action over Gibraltar - no deal it is then
- Thread starter Friedrich986
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Return Olivenza.
Hey, that's democracy for you. Why do you hate democracy?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Call me cynical but I wonder if there if the situation resulting from the EU 'Growth and Stability' pact and Spain's limited policy autonomy/repayments to the ECB? PSOE are in power now in Spain, they need to be seen to break with Rajoy's austerity policies at least a little bit, Italy is gearing up for a showdown with the EU and this is circus is going on - maybe they think it's a good time to try to get some limited concessions.
I could be way off here, but it doesn't seem like Spanish capitalism is making a serious play to reclaim Gibraltar just now.
I could be way off here, but it doesn't seem like Spanish capitalism is making a serious play to reclaim Gibraltar just now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's chaff - pure chaff. Same as malvinas crap.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Have you actually read anything about this, eg the story linked to above?
This story is about the Spanish threat to reject the draft Brexit withdrawal deal without a "clarification" of the text on future talks on the status of Gibraltar. Spain is demanding something is added to the deal stating that future EU talks with the UK will not cover Gibraltar.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Yes I have, which is where I read that there are separate negotiations regarding the territory.
Manter
Lunch Mob
A) We moved Brits there so of course they want to remain British.
B) It’s a dodgy tax-avoiders paradise. Like Dorking with better weather. This isn’t about moral cases.
And from spain’s point of view, of course they are sabre rattling. Chance to get their own way, and the only ‘downside’ is that Britain crashes out with a no deal and the British economy crashes in its turn. And why would Spain care?!
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I find it odd that Spain has an obsession with Gibraltar when so many of its inhabitants do not see themselves as Spanish. How's Catalonia going for them these days?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
That was 300 odd years ago. Several have been born there since.
Manter
Lunch Mob
Indeed. Doesn’t alter the fact the whole place reeks of colonial bullshit (with a side of gambling businesses funded via Israeli shell companies)
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Maybe we could swap Catalonia for Gibralter?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Just Majorca would do.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Already ours.
Oi!
If you can avoid tax by living in Dorking, my accountant has a lot to answer for.
(Or, she would do if I had one.)
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
that special one of three EU nations alongside Ireland and Cyprus with territorial claims on "British" Territories.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
JHE
.
There's no reason at all to interpret the Spanish government's statements on Gibraltar as an attempt to stop Brexit.
There are two things behind the recent comments. One is Spain's agreement with the EU. The other is about how the government looks at home.
1. The EU agreed long ago to the Spanish demand that any economic agreements between the UK and the EU would only include Gibraltar if Spain agreed to Gibraltar being included. The Spanish government is now claiming (sincerely, as far as I know) that this Spanish veto on the inclusion of Gibraltar has not been spelled out clearly in the proposed withdrawal agreement and political declaration. I see no reason at all to think the EU has any intention of going back on its commitment to Spain on this point. Probably the EU negotiators saw no need to spell out this point in this proposed agreement, but I expect the EU negotiators will add a sentence somewhere to mollify the Spanish government.
2. In the last couple of weeks right-wing politicians and newspapers have been giving the Spanish government a hard time over the Gibraltar negotiations. The accusation is that the govt has not taken a hard enough line in its negotiations with the UK. The Spanish right-wing is attacking the govt as a bunch of unpatriotic sell-outs. Some critics say that the Spanish govt should be more demanding in relation to Gibraltar's airport. Some say the negotiations should be about sovereignty, not just co-operation, taxes and the airport. Making a fuss about the current proposed withdrawal agreement gives the Spanish government an opportunity to look good, sticking up for Spain.
Gibraltarians knew back in 2016 that Brexit would be a problem for them. 96% of them, on a high turnout, voted for the UK to remain in the EU. Very soon after the referendum, the Spanish Foreign Minister, José Manuel García-Margallo, was boasting that they would have the Spanish flag flying on the rock sooner than 'the English' thought. Luckily, he was replaced by the much more diplomatic Alfonso Dastis, who (having been the Spanish ambassador to the EU) was very probably the person most involved in the diplomatic coup of getting the EU to promise that Gibraltar could only be included in a future trade deal if Spain agreed.
The new PSOE government's Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell, has been more like Dastis. He's not like García-Margallo. He likes being a plain speaker, calling Brexit a pain in the arse. More importantly, he made it clear he was not trying to negotiate the sovereignty of Gibraltar.
The negotiations are not public, but two topics are known. The Spanish govt proposed that Gibraltar should increase tax, in particular on tobacco, to reduce the incentive to smuggle fags from Gibraltar into Spain. I think it's a very good idea. I don't know what the Gib govt thinks of the idea, but I'd guess they could live with it. Another topic has been the airport, with Spain wanting some sort of joint control over it. I don't know the details of the Spanish demands but I imagine that any surrender of control would be unacceptable to the Gib govt.
I very much hope that there is agreement over Gibraltar and that the relatively civilised Sánchez govt manages to fend off their gung-ho anti-Gibraltarian opponents. There are certainly people on the Spanish side of the negotiations who want agreement.
There are three groups of people whose interests are most at stake.
1. The smugglers. It's tough on them, of course, but I'm all for sacrificing their interests.
2. The Gibraltarians. They need an agreement or things could get really bad for them.
3. Many thousands of Spanish workers who go into Gibraltar every day to earn a living.
There are two things behind the recent comments. One is Spain's agreement with the EU. The other is about how the government looks at home.
1. The EU agreed long ago to the Spanish demand that any economic agreements between the UK and the EU would only include Gibraltar if Spain agreed to Gibraltar being included. The Spanish government is now claiming (sincerely, as far as I know) that this Spanish veto on the inclusion of Gibraltar has not been spelled out clearly in the proposed withdrawal agreement and political declaration. I see no reason at all to think the EU has any intention of going back on its commitment to Spain on this point. Probably the EU negotiators saw no need to spell out this point in this proposed agreement, but I expect the EU negotiators will add a sentence somewhere to mollify the Spanish government.
2. In the last couple of weeks right-wing politicians and newspapers have been giving the Spanish government a hard time over the Gibraltar negotiations. The accusation is that the govt has not taken a hard enough line in its negotiations with the UK. The Spanish right-wing is attacking the govt as a bunch of unpatriotic sell-outs. Some critics say that the Spanish govt should be more demanding in relation to Gibraltar's airport. Some say the negotiations should be about sovereignty, not just co-operation, taxes and the airport. Making a fuss about the current proposed withdrawal agreement gives the Spanish government an opportunity to look good, sticking up for Spain.
Gibraltarians knew back in 2016 that Brexit would be a problem for them. 96% of them, on a high turnout, voted for the UK to remain in the EU. Very soon after the referendum, the Spanish Foreign Minister, José Manuel García-Margallo, was boasting that they would have the Spanish flag flying on the rock sooner than 'the English' thought. Luckily, he was replaced by the much more diplomatic Alfonso Dastis, who (having been the Spanish ambassador to the EU) was very probably the person most involved in the diplomatic coup of getting the EU to promise that Gibraltar could only be included in a future trade deal if Spain agreed.
The new PSOE government's Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell, has been more like Dastis. He's not like García-Margallo. He likes being a plain speaker, calling Brexit a pain in the arse. More importantly, he made it clear he was not trying to negotiate the sovereignty of Gibraltar.
The negotiations are not public, but two topics are known. The Spanish govt proposed that Gibraltar should increase tax, in particular on tobacco, to reduce the incentive to smuggle fags from Gibraltar into Spain. I think it's a very good idea. I don't know what the Gib govt thinks of the idea, but I'd guess they could live with it. Another topic has been the airport, with Spain wanting some sort of joint control over it. I don't know the details of the Spanish demands but I imagine that any surrender of control would be unacceptable to the Gib govt.
I very much hope that there is agreement over Gibraltar and that the relatively civilised Sánchez govt manages to fend off their gung-ho anti-Gibraltarian opponents. There are certainly people on the Spanish side of the negotiations who want agreement.
There are three groups of people whose interests are most at stake.
1. The smugglers. It's tough on them, of course, but I'm all for sacrificing their interests.
2. The Gibraltarians. They need an agreement or things could get really bad for them.
3. Many thousands of Spanish workers who go into Gibraltar every day to earn a living.
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not-bono-ever
meh
can we not fob them off with the falklands to shut them up ?
Riklet
procrastinación
Sharing the airport and wacking up taxes on the dodgy individuals & companies that base themselves in Gib is something we can and should all support. I dont think we should sell the population of Gibraltar and their democratic rights out, but the Gibraltarian government has to step up a bit with the gambling companies and various dodginess going on there. The place needs a bit of a poke. But the idea of "giving it back" to Spain is also a joke, considering Franco caused the entire mess 50 years ago and democratic governments haven't done much better since.
My impression is there's not actually that much smuggling any more, it's the money that's the real issue. If you look at the problems in Algeciras, La Linea and the rest of the Campo de Gibraltar with the massive drug trade, you can imagine where a good chunk of the cash flowing into Gibraltar is coming from. Dirty money being washed through... surprise surprise online casinos and gambling companies, while they pay the Spanish workers 8 quid an hour. Yeah Picardo's chubby round face would redden even further hearing this, but for a supposedly "left wing" government there, it's all pretty shoddy.
My impression is there's not actually that much smuggling any more, it's the money that's the real issue. If you look at the problems in Algeciras, La Linea and the rest of the Campo de Gibraltar with the massive drug trade, you can imagine where a good chunk of the cash flowing into Gibraltar is coming from. Dirty money being washed through... surprise surprise online casinos and gambling companies, while they pay the Spanish workers 8 quid an hour. Yeah Picardo's chubby round face would redden even further hearing this, but for a supposedly "left wing" government there, it's all pretty shoddy.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Stopping the smuggling / dirty cash is one thing, why do the Spanish care for the airport though? It’s a rubbish airport, with a big rock to one side causing wind issues and a sodding road going across the runway. And Malaga airport is just up the way which is a proper, world class one.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
They can have Diego Garcia. On condition they wrestle it from the current occupiers.
not-bono-ever
meh
Gibraltar is a toilet.
Yossarian
⏭️
Diego Garcia belongs to the Chagossians and Britain's failure to allow them to return is deeply shameful.
It's also bigger than Gibraltar and Spain should be offered somewhere around the same size - maybe they'd settle for Sark or Alderney.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
So is most of London.
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