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Now Spain wants a piece of the action over Gibraltar - no deal it is then

I heard that. Shame, until then, I'd quite fancied a visit.
It's definitely worth a visit. Even if you don't like it, the place is interesting.

I wouldn't aim to stay there, though, unless you have lots of money. The accommodation is expensive. You can find pleasant and much cheaper places to stay in La Línea, just over the border. You can usually just stroll across the border with no hassle or delay. (I hope this remains the situation.)

I got married in Gibraltar several years ago. We chose it simply because it is fairly straightforward in terms of paperwork, with less delay and fewer documents than in Spain, and it was pretty affordable. That's why we went, but I liked Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians much more than I had expected to.

I don't really understand the toilet comment and similar comments, but I guess it has more to do with antipathy towards the Gibraltarians for being and insisting on remaining British than it has to do with the town or the rock.
 
It's definitely worth a visit. Even if you don't like it, the place is interesting.

I wouldn't aim to stay there, though, unless you have lots of money. The accommodation is expensive. You can find pleasant and much cheaper places to stay in La Línea, just over the border. You can usually just stroll across the border with no hassle or delay. (I hope this remains the situation.)

I got married in Gibraltar several years ago. We chose it simply because it is fairly straightforward in terms of paperwork, with less delay and fewer documents than in Spain, and it was pretty affordable. That's why we went, but I liked Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians much more than I had expected to.

I don't really understand the toilet comment and similar comments, but I guess it has more to do with antipathy towards the Gibraltarians for being and insisting on remaining British than it has to do with the town or the rock.

I can only go on anecdotage from a few people who visited and had bad experiences (harassment and racism) so obvs, I can't say whether it's good or bad. Bumping into ex-pats, wherever you find yourself, is often a curious experience and sometimes hard to get your head around certain attitudes. But never say never, I'd like to find out more about it.
 
Stopping the smuggling / dirty cash is one thing, why do the Spanish care for the airport though? It’s a rubbish airport, with a big rock to one side causing wind issues and a sodding road going across the runway. And Malaga airport is just up the way which is a proper, world class one.
They actually don't give a fuck about the practicalities of sharing the airport and they don't give a fuck about the smuggling or money laundering either. This is all piss and wind.
 
I can only go on anecdotage from a few people who visited and had bad experiences (harassment and racism) so obvs, I can't say whether it's good or bad. Bumping into ex-pats, wherever you find yourself, is often a curious experience and sometimes hard to get your head around certain attitudes. But never say never, I'd like to find out more about it.
I woudn't let that stop you going. I didn't experience any racism there and it is a genuinely interesting place to mooch around for a day or two. No longer than that though.
 
I woudn't let that stop you going. I didn't experience any racism there and it is a genuinely interesting place to mooch around for a day or two. No longer than that though.

Yeah, we've experienced unnecessary attention in several places but of course, not everyone does. I still rate those places as agreeable and worth a visit, so maybe one day. One of my friends is adamant that she'd never go there again but you can't dismiss somewhere because of a few bad experiences. I think.
 
Theresa May has agreed that any trade deal that may be made will not necessarily include Gib.

Brexit: May gives way over Gibraltar after Spain's 'veto' threat

The recent fuss seems to have worked out quite well for the Spanish government. They can claim to have won. Yesterday's El Mundo (a broadly pro-PP newspaper) had an article by the horrible García-Margallo fondly supporting Borrell, the current Foreign Minister, for his latest position over Gibraltar.

In a way, what has just hapened is simply a reiteration of the existing situation. The EU had already agreed that a trade deal with the UK could only include Gib if Spain was happy with the outcome of Spanish-British negotiations.

In a another way, however, there is a change. The position of the Sánchez government has shifted. I remember Borrell saying not long ago (a couple of months ago maybe) that the negotiations were not about sovereignty. Now we have Sánchez saying that they must talk about 'joint sovereignty'.

'Joint sovereignty' was the notion - or at least the phrase - at the heart of British-Spanish negotiations back in about 2002. Peter Hain thought he could reach an agreement with the Spanish govt, led by Aznar, and then persuade the Gibraltarians to accept it. He was wrong. The talks broke down partly because the British and Spanish sides had very different ideas about what joint sovereignty would mean, with the British thinking it would be a permanent solution and the Spanish thinking it was a transitional period from British sovereignty to Spanish sovereignty. The main reason, however, was that the Gib govt reacted by holding a referendum which rejected the idea of 'joint sovereignty' almost unanimously. 98.48% voted against.

I really wouldn't have expected Sánchez to be one of those gentlemen who chant ¡Gibraltar español!, just like the crowds who some decades ago used to fill Plaza de Oriente to shout that slogan in support of the aged little general with the piping voice, up on the balcony of the royal palace. It doesn't really seem Sánchez's style or the sort of thing he went into politics to do, but I suppose he thinks it is prudent to go along with the shouty Spanish right on this question.

[Edit: The Spanish right is more internally competitive than it used to be and I reckon this tends to make them worse on the Gib question. For many years, PP was the only serious party of the Spanish right. Other right-wing parties were either limited to particular parts of Spain and were not españolistas or were tiny electorally insignificant sects, descended in many cases from the Falange or the Carlists. In this situation, it was possible for more careful, more conservative Conservatives like Rajoy to steer away from unnecessary conflicts.

Now there is Ciudadanos competing with PP to wave the flag and take an even harder line against Catalan separatism. In addition, one smaller right-wing party called Vox, a split some years ago from PP, has gained a little bit of support. They are not going to win any elections, but with their support now at somewhere between 2 and 5%, according to opinion polls, the bigger parties, especially PP, are under more pressure to retain the support of the sort of people who really do like to shout ¡Gibraltar español! and would be quite keen to fuck up lots of people's livelihoods in pursuit of their hateful irredentist dreams.]

It is potentially bad news for Gibraltar. The Gibraltarians would like to carry on with normal economic relations with Spain. It really would have suited them (and lots of other people) if this great big Brexit mess had been avoided in the first place.

As for May, I have never liked her at all, but increasingly I feel sorry for her. All that effort and all those concessions just to get to a Brexit proposal that the Brexiteers don't want. What's the point of her?
 
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A spirited response from Fabian Picardo: http://chronicle.gi/2018/11/statement-chief-minister-eve-november-special-european-council/

This bit was particularly good:
Fabian Picardo said:
Like many people around the world, I welcome the fact that he [Sánchez] is acting to move the bones of the fascist General Franco from Valle de los Caídos.

But I must tell him that whilst he pursues the sovereignty of Gibraltar in the manner that he has today, he is doing no more than pursuing the policy bidding of the Generalisimo himself.

I sincerely hope he changes course.

Because abandoning the politics of Franco in respect of the sovereignty of Gibraltar would be a more effective way of turning over a new leaf.

I don't doubt that the Gibraltarians are resolutely opposed to any Spanish attempt to take over or 'share' sovereignty and I wish Spain would recognise that Gibraltarians don't take kindly to Spanish bullying, but Picardo's upbeat view of Gibraltar's future - "a better, stronger and more prosperous British Gibraltar" - may be wishful thinking. If British-Spanish relations deteriorate and a future Spanish govt is determined to push their claim, we could even end up back in the bad old days of a closed border, which would be very bad for the Gibraltarians and many of their neighbours.
 
The spiteful people here who want the British government to sell out the Gibraltarians may like this poster.

42454260.jpg


(I live in Ciudad Lineal - it's a district of Madrid - and I never see posters from this particular remnant of Spanish Fascism. People of that sort probably vote for Vox nowadays.)
 
Interesting idea. To what administrative level should defence and other Government functions be devolved?
Are you suggesting our government is in charge of Gibraltar?

And if functions are non-devlolved then as a citizen and tax payer, I have a right to a say in what happens to them, no? In contrast to your statement that only Gibralterians have the right to determine what happens to them:

Nope. It's not up to you or anyone else here unless they are Gibraltar residents.

Either Gibraltar is part of the British state and the British state is responsible for them, in which case I would expect full tax contribution, British law and British citizens to be included in saying what happens there, or it is not — it is a standalone territory with self-determination and it’s own tax base — in which case I do not see why Britain more than anybody else is responsible for defending it.

This idea that it is okay to have tax exempt protectorates that can wash money for their big brother and everybody else has to lump it is a big problem in the modern world. Why should I buy into it?
 
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Are you suggesting our government is in charge of Gibraltar?

And if functions are non-devlolved then as a citizen and tax payer, I have a right to a say in what happens to them, no? In contrast to your statement that only Gibralterians have the right to determine what happens to them:



Either Gibraltar is part of the British state and the British state is responsible for them, in which case I would expect full tax contribution, British law and British citizens to be included in saying what happens there, or it is not — it is a standalone territory with self-determination and it’s own tax base — in which case I do not see why Britain more than anybody else is responsible for defending it.

This idea that it is okay to have tax exempt protectorates that can wash money for their big brother and everybody else has to lump it is a big problem in the modern world. Why should I buy into it?


I agree that Gibraltar has murkiness as a central part of it's being.

I actually tried to stop a smuggling operation there when posted to Gib in the mid 90s and was told in so many words to fuck off and mind my own business.


That was by a copper, I was on duty in uniform at the time....

Having said that, we are where we are and if you live in London you have absolutely no room to talk about the downside of money laundering now, do you?

Gibraltar's population is British with colonial caveats, they have their own defence force since the early 90s I believe, and we are in a defined mutual military protection arrangement with them
 
I don’t live in London and I have to do endless dreary training courses on spotting and stopping money laundering.

If Gibraltar’s population is British then they need to start paying Britain some income tax. And if they expect Britain to defend them then I think the British get a say on the conditions under which that defence will and won’t take place.
 
...Having said that, we are where we are and if you live in London you have absolutely no room to talk about the downside of money laundering now, do you?

I'm curious what you mean here. I live in London but don't see any reason why that means I shouldn't object to the practice of money laundering, wherever it takes place.

Could you explain why you think I shouldn't?
 
I'm curious what you mean here. I live in London but don't see any reason why that means I shouldn't object to the practice of money laundering, wherever it takes place.

Could you explain why you think I shouldn't?

Ah, it looked like you were singling Gib out for financial shenanigans, I see what you were getting at now.


Not saying g I particularly agree though.


Personally I like the French model, where every overseas citizen is a full French Citizen.


We could offer that to Gib, the Falklands, several Caribbean territories.... with some quid pro quo around revenues, governance and human rights, maybe.
 
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