Now Spain wants a piece of the action over Gibraltar - no deal it is then

[Spymaster]

I always wondered how the murky murder of 3 unarmed Irish citizens played out in that there Gibraltar. It sounded like the wild west at the time

Three unarmed provisional IRA members would be a little more honest.

 

[krtek a houby]

Three unarmed provisional IRA members would be a little more honest.

Possibly but still, it all leaves a nasty aftertaste.

 

[danny la rouge]

Three unarmed provisional IRA members would be a little more honest.

It’s possible to be both. Although in this case they were unarmed British citizens who were IRA members. (All three were born in Belfast).

 

[krtek a houby]

It’s possible to be both. Although in this case they were unarmed British citizens who were IRA members. (All three were born in Belfast).

Sure, technically British. I doubt they would have seen themselves as such, so.

 

[danny la rouge]

Sure, technically British. I doubt they would have seen themselves as such, so.

Citizenship is a bureaucratic process not (in itself) an identity.

(This is something, incidentally, that ardent remainers might want to consider. How much is their position actually identarian gut reaction?)

 

[danny la rouge]

And to be clear about what I’m saying there: identity tied to polity is nationalism.

 

[krtek a houby]

And to be clear about what I’m saying there: identity tied to polity is nationalism.

Polity?

 

[danny la rouge]

Polity?

Political/administrative structure, such as a state.

 

[krtek a houby]

Political/administrative structure, such as a state.

Ok. But not to get all pedantic, they (I imagine) would have seen themselves as Irish, long before any idpol stuff was out there.

 

[likesfish]

I always wondered how the murky murder of 3 unarmed Irish citizens played out in that there Gibraltar. It sounded like the wild west at the time

be slightly more sympathetic if they hadn't set out to murder a military band and a load of tourists but of course they'd be legitimate targets in the glorious struggle for irish freedom.
while getting shot while on a recce for the bomb is the foulest of foulest atrocities.

Gibs very handy for the US as Spain doesn't allow nuclear vessels to enter its ports although until recently it did allow russian navy ships to refuel in its African colonies

 

[krtek a houby]

be slightly more sympathetic if they hadn't set out to murder a military band and a load of tourists but of course they'd be legitimate targets in the glorious struggle for irish freedom.
while getting shot while on a recce for the bomb is the foulest of foulest atrocities.

Gibs very handy for the US as Spain doesn't allow nuclear vessels to enter its ports although until recently it did allow russian navy ships to refuel in its African colonies

Am not condoning their plans to cause murder and mayhem, though. Am concerned about how they were stopped from doing so.

Neither the IRA or the SAS came out of this looking good.

And now I really am derailing. My bad.

 

[kebabking]

You don’t need a supply base and staging post if you aren’t trying to police the rest of the world.

The problem with this is that it assumes such things are a zero sum game - they are not, as perhaps is best seen in Syria. If you leave the stage you may not like the actor who replaces you and the play they wish to put on.

You could say the same thing about the Left and it's collective abandonment of such issues as identity and immigration in the 80's because it found them inconvenient and distasteful - and then look who picked them up and ran with them.

It the options are not whether you can be on the bus or not on the bus, but who is driving.

 

[danny la rouge]

Ok. But not to get all pedantic, they (I imagine) would have seen themselves as Irish, long before any idpol stuff was out there.

Well, I think you're getting bogged down there: nationalism long pre-dates what I imagine you're calling "idpol stuff". They would have been quite comfortable with the label nationalist, I'd bet. And their identity, their sense of Irishness, would have been very closely tied to a sense of loss; that in order for their Irishness to be whole, they needed their corner of the island to be part of an Irish State. That's nationalism. Now it so happens that I support the aim of the whole of Ireland to be part of the same nation-state, but I don't support the notion that what makes it desirable or logical is identity or uniformity of culture or ethnicity. Nor would I argue that once achieved that's it forever. Polities should be instruments of people, not vice versa.

 

[Spymaster]

Am not condoning their plans to cause murder and mayhem, though. Am concerned about how they were stopped from doing so.

Neither the IRA or the SAS came out of this looking good.

I stay out of Irish politics usually but bringing up these three as an example of British bastardry is going to have everyone reaching for the tiny violins.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I stay out of Irish politics usually but bringing up these three as an example of British bastardry is going to have everyone reaching for the tiny violins.

Especially as they all had previous, the two guys had shot & killed a couple of RUC officers, and woman served time for planting a bomb at a hotel in NI, so whilst I would have preferred them to face justice over this planned attack, I have no real sympathy for them. They knew what they were doing & the risks involved.

 

[Yossarian]

One of three Irish Republican Army members killed by British Army commandos in Gibraltar last March was shot with as many 18 bullets, including four in the head fired at close range as he lay wounded on the ground, an inquest into the deaths was told today.

Alan Watson, the pathologist who examined the bodies, described the death of Sean Savage as the result of a "frenzied attack" in which shots in the back had probably rendered him incapable of moving before four bullets were fired into his head by someone standing above him.

Watson's testimony, on the third day of the inquest being held in Gibraltar, appeared to support charges by the families of the dead that they were killed in a premeditated, cold-blooded attack. Some eyewitnesses have said that two of the dead, Mairead Farrell and Daniel McCann, were trying to surrender when they were shot and that Savage was running away.

I think the aftermath of the shootings might have been quite different if cameraphones and YouTube had been around in those days.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I think the aftermath of the shootings might have been quite different if cameraphones and YouTube had been around in those days.

I doubt it, from the information given to the soldiers, they honestly thought that a car bomb had been planted and that one or more were carrying a remote to set it off. They weren't going to take any chances that an injured person could still activate the remote, they were going to make sure they were all very dead.

The ECHR held their actions were not in breach Article 2 (the right to life), and dismissed other allegations, including that the government had conspired in killing them, just finding the planning and control of the operation breached Article 2. The ECHR also rejected claims from the families for damages.

Mistakes were made in the operation, as per my previous post, by not arresting them at the border or certainly before they parked the suspect car, and because the bomb wasn't in that actual car, but another one still in Spain, under the circumstances I doubt anything would have changed the actions of the soldiers at the actual point of engagement.

 

[Cheesepig3]

Am not condoning their plans to cause murder and mayhem, though. Am concerned about how they were stopped from doing so.

Neither the IRA or the SAS came out of this looking good.

And now I really am derailing. My bad.

When did the IRA ever come out of anything looking good?

 

[gosub]

Not a problem; when we join the EUarmy we'll get access to the "listening" irrespective of who claims to own the rock.

5 eyes has more value.

 

[dylanredefined]

5 eyes has more value.

Does it so why have we been fighting in Afghanistan and the middle east for 10 years plus. With 9/11, Syria, Libya, Yemen Isis( anything I left out?) Russia invading Ukraine turning out to be a complete surprise and everything the west did as wrong or made things so much worse?
I think pensioning the intelligence community of and giving the job to mystic Meg would save us a ton of money. Problem with all this cloak and dagger stuck we have no idea what they get up to is any use.

 

[ViolentPanda]

When did the IRA ever come out of anything looking good?

The Easter Rising.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does it so why have we been fighting in Afghanistan and the middle east for 10 years plus. With 9/11, Syria, Libya, Yemen Isis( anything I left out?) Russia invading Ukraine turning out to be a complete surprise and everything the west did as wrong or made things so much worse?
I think pensioning the intelligence community of and giving the job to mystic Meg would save us a ton of money. Problem with all this cloak and dagger stuck we have no idea what they get up to is any use.

The problem isn't the intelligence community as a whole, it's the intelligence Establishment - the public schoolboys/regimental tie brigade who have "firm opinions" and won't accept any intel that contradicts their chosen line.

 

[gosub]

As said before, one of my major quibbles with the UK Intel community is the complaints procedure.. With unaccountability (based on implausible stats) comes, to a certain extent, complacency or at very least limits scope for 'what can be learned to do things better?'.. HOWEVER, the Failure of procedure - not since 2015 has a PM invited the relevant Parliamentary Oversight Committee into Number 10 for a banter (- it's not like there haven't been much to chat about in the last 3 years..) That is a bigger and more serious issue in an era when what is democracy and what is accountabily is increasing unclear

 

[Cheesepig3]

The problem isn't the intelligence community as a whole, it's the intelligence Establishment - the public schoolboys/regimental tie brigade who have "firm opinions" and won't accept any intel that contradicts their chosen line.

Would you mind hinting at your sources and/or experience which leads you to this opinion?

Thanks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Would you mind hinting at your sources and/or experience which leads you to this opinion?

Thanks.

Sorry old boy, can't do that (taps finger on side of nose), what what!

 

[Cheesepig3]

Sorry old boy, can't do that (taps finger on side of nose), what what!

Righty ho, tell G I said pip-pip.

 

[Cheesepig3]

The Easter Rising.

Really? Violent uprising by self-important killers who thought their cause permitted them to murder.



Nah.



Romantic shite.... although standing on the post office threshold with the bullet holes still visible it's hard not to romanticise I grant you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Righty ho, tell G I said pip-pip.

Didn't you hear? G fucked orf to Venezuela, promised the role of "Supreme Director of Intelligence"!

 

[Cheesepig3]

I say! Thought I'd not seen the old rogue at the Club lately.

D'you think we should tell the club servants to release his gimp?

 

[likesfish]

You don’t need a supply base and staging post if you aren’t trying to police the rest of the world.

well its are culture we've been fucking over the middle east since the crusades