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Now Spain wants a piece of the action over Gibraltar - no deal it is then

I think your FInd PIRA don't exactly have clean hands and it wasn't the British army that planned mass murder on Bloody Sunday support company 3 para did that the failure to hold the murderers to account as usual made everything worse.


not that changing the name of the police and getting some people well-paid jobs justifies the mass murder of English working class lads and random civilians not that the protestants escape blame for this fiasco with their 17th century ideas.
 
belboid said:
I've told you how, not my problem if you cant get your head around it. Although you do the same yet again immediately below.


More meaningless gibberish. If you just keep coming out with meaningless gibberish then nothing is going to change, and the status quo remains in place.

I would like a socialist government. Let's try electing them, but if the ruling class do what they normally do, and try to use their military might to stop meaningful change, then I have absolutely no problem with the use of political violence to stop them.
Click to expand...


Define "political violence " would you?
Thanks.
 
krtek a houby said:
Nope - actual terrorism came from the British army murdering civil rights protesters, and acting in collusion with loyalists and the RUC in order to surpress and terrorise innocent people in the 6 counties.

And I'm no fan of terrorism, I've spoken up against it here for donkey's years but since you're new, I'll cut you some slack.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure why you say "nope".


The Army is, and was even more so back then, a very blunt instrument.

Their very bad actions were very bad.

I said it's been terrorism ever since, how is that not so?
 
cheesepig said:
Define "political violence " would you?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Violence perpetrated by people or governments to achieve political goals. It can describe violence used by a state against other states (war) or against non-state actors (e.g. police brutality, counter-insurgency, genocide). It can also describe politically-motivated violence by non-state actors against a state (e.g. rebellion, rioting) or against other non-state actors. Non-action on the part of a government can also be characterized as a form of political violence, such as refusing to alleviate famine or otherwise denying resources to politically identifiable groups within their territory.

Are you ever going to put forward your alternative? 'Something, something, peaceful, something, something' isn't really an answer.
 
belboid said:
Violence perpetrated by people or governments to achieve political goals. It can describe violence used by a state against other states (war) or against non-state actors (e.g. police brutality, counter-insurgency, genocide). It can also describe politically-motivated violence by non-state actors against a state (e.g. rebellion, rioting) or against other non-state actors. Non-action on the part of a government can also be characterized as a form of political violence, such as refusing to alleviate famine or otherwise denying resources to politically identifiable groups within their territory.

Are you ever going to put forward your alternative? 'Something, something, peaceful, something, something' isn't really an answer.
Click to expand...


I dunno.

Years ago, I remember believing quite passionately that political violence, as you so competently cut n pasted above, is justifiable in the Greater Good. Because the Means Justify the Ends. Or whatever.


But then I went off to war and saw what that means in real life, and realised that I had been talking utter shite, like you are now you fucking bell end.

Your problem is that you can, as can anyone with an IQ or reading age over 11, identify all sorts of problems. Your only solution is to use force. Well, kiddo, you absolutely don't have the right to use force except in very limited circumstances now do you?

Something something something peaceful. I give you Elvis Costello, (what's so funny about) peace love and understanding?

Every pub has a little gang of boring teenage wannabee class warriors, or EDL, or animal rights freaks, or Welsh Nats or whatever. I can visualise you with a spotty crowd ranting about The State, at a sticky table somewhere.

All you offer is your own narcissism resting on a bed of other people's injuries, deaths and misery.


Persuasion, buddy, and non violence. Takes years? So be it. Better than violence.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
cheesepig said:
I dunno.

Years ago, I remember believing quite passionately that political violence, as you so competently cut n pasted above, is justifiable in the Greater Good. Because the Means Justify the Ends.


But then I went off to war and saw what that means in real life, and realised that I had been talking utter shite, like you are now you fucking bell end.

Your problem is that you can, as can anyone with an IQ or reading age over 11, identify all sorts of problems. Your only solution is to use force. Well, kiddo, you absolutely don't have the right to use force except in very limited circumstances now do you?

Something something something peaceful. I give you Elvis Costello, (what's so funny about) peace love and understanding?

Every pub has a little gang of boring teenage wannabee class warriors, or EDL, or animal rights freaks, or Welsh Nats or whatever. I can visualise you with a spotty crowd ranting about The State, at a sticky table somewhere.

All you offer is your own narcissism resting on a bed of other people's injuries, deaths and misery.


Persuasion, buddy, and non violence. Takes years? So be it. Better than violence.
Click to expand...


The thing is..."persuading" a dynastic dictatorial empire controlled by wealth and maintenance of power is pretty near impossible.
 
PippinTook said:
But they are the ones in power with the guns...dominating over other countries...crushing people.
Click to expand...
Only 'cos we let them.


Take a longer view. What was acceptable in 1950 that isn't now? How did it change? What's acceptable now that won't be in 2068? How will that change?

Hopefully the answer to my last question there isn't "by Belboid and his/her overexcited mates trashing stuff and locking people up or shooting them".
 
cheesepig said:
Only 'cos we let them.


Take a longer view. What was acceptable in 1950 that isn't now? How did it change? What's acceptable now that won't be in 2068? How will that change?

Hopefully the answer to my last question there isn't "by Belboid and his/her overexcited mates trashing stuff and locking people up or shooting them".
Click to expand...


The long view in Ireland was 800 years. Maybe we had waited long enough.
 
ViolentPanda said:
We (the British) so often neglect to mention the phenomenon of the British state employing what was effectively a private paramilitary army, whose members were given free rein over the areas they patrolled. To call them thieves and freebooters would be kind.
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Their spirit was alive and well in the RUC into the late 1980s.


Bastards.
 
T & P said:
I am Spanish and in my lifelong experience the position of Spaniards regarding the status of Gibraltar transcends politics. The overwhelming majority deeply resent British sovereignty and would like the Rock to return to Spanish sovereignty regardless of their political leanings..
Click to expand...

My partner is Spanish and I'd say what you say is correct. Her family are on the left from civil war days.
 
Gramsci said:
My partner is Spanish and I'd say what you say is correct. Her family are on the left from civil war days.
Click to expand...

I'd add that very few people see how it can be done; it remains a very abstract aspiration. Other people come up with solutions like a recognition that the Rock is Spanish but that there is some kind of sine die lease to the Gibraltarian authorities. Not many people seem to think that Gib residents are Spanish or should be: it's all about the real estate.

Mind you, when things get hairy internally it's a convenient rallying point and you get more people all for marching in and taking what's 'theirs'.

What they'd do then with a rebel town isn't clear.
 
cheesepig said:
I dunno.

Years ago, I remember believing quite passionately that political violence, as you so competently cut n pasted above, is justifiable in the Greater Good. Because the Means Justify the Ends. Or whatever.


But then I went off to war and saw what that means in real life, and realised that I had been talking utter shite, like you are now you fucking bell end.

Your problem is that you can, as can anyone with an IQ or reading age over 11, identify all sorts of problems. Your only solution is to use force. Well, kiddo, you absolutely don't have the right to use force except in very limited circumstances now do you?

Something something something peaceful. I give you Elvis Costello, (what's so funny about) peace love and understanding?

Every pub has a little gang of boring teenage wannabee class warriors, or EDL, or animal rights freaks, or Welsh Nats or whatever. I can visualise you with a spotty crowd ranting about The State, at a sticky table somewhere.

All you offer is your own narcissism resting on a bed of other people's injuries, deaths and misery.


Persuasion, buddy, and non violence. Takes years? So be it. Better than violence.
Click to expand...
Whereas you have offered nothing. Absolutely nothing, beyond meaningless, glib, platitudes. Useless apologies for the status quo. You can't 'persuade' the British state. And using force isn't my only solution, but it is one I absolutely would not renounce. As you just refused to, you ludicrous hypocrite.
 
If your going to commit to violence to achieve your aim you need an achieveable aim.
The Ira's aim wasn't achievable by violence they never had enough enough people or weapons to make the aim achievable getting enough people and weapons wasn't ever going to happen.
 
Spymaster said:
You stupid, childish, fucking wanker.

You best hope we don't meet again.
Click to expand...

Or what, you're going to give him a beat-down? Grow the fuck up, you embarrassing twat. How the fuck was Warrenpoint any different from Ballymurphy or Bloody Sunday, unless of course you think the Northern Irish are less human than members of the British army?
 
likesfish said:
If your going to commit to violence to achieve your aim you need an achieveable aim.
The Ira's aim wasn't achievable by violence they never had enough enough people or weapons to make the aim achievable getting enough people and weapons wasn't ever going to happen.
Click to expand...

Thing is, the Provisionals knew they didn't HAVE to win, they merely had to be enough of a thorn in the side of the British govt, so that the general British public got fed up enough that public sentiment moved from "hang the bastards" to "why the fuck aren't we solving this?". Looked at from that perspective, it worked.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Or what, you're going to give him a beat-down? Grow the fuck up, you embarrassing twat. How the fuck was Warrenpoint any different from Ballymurphy or Bloody Sunday, unless of course you think the Northern Irish are less human than members of the British army?
Click to expand...
Go fuck yourself you silly prick. I’ve drawn no parallels.
 
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