No place for Israel in Middle East, says Iran’s Ahmadinejad

[purenarcotic]

why not whack yourself over the head with a copyy of "protocols of the elders of zion" it could hardly do you any harm.

Hah that proper made me lol.

 

[cesare]

Bloody hell, weltweit. That's well out of order

 

[weltweit]

Bloody hell, weltweit. That's well out of order

Hmm, I can see why people are saying that. Still, I have said it now and there is no undoing that, especially when so many have quoted it.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Hmm, I can see why people are saying that.

That's because it's bigoted, ignorant, naked anti-semitism. I'm amazed no-one reported it.

 

[cesare]

Hmm, I can see why people are saying that. Still, I have said it now and there is no undoing that, especially when so many have quoted it.

Do you understand why you've got this reaction, though?

 

[purenarcotic]

That's because it's bigoted, ignorant, naked anti-semitism. I'm amazed no-one reported it.

I was just about to tbh, I was so incredulous I had to give myself a few minutes or the report would have just been 'fucking cunting what the fuck'

 

[purenarcotic]

Hmm, I can see why people are saying that. Still, I have said it now and there is no undoing that, especially when so many have quoted it.

But why would even conceive it was an acceptable thing to say?

Do you think all black people are the same?

 

[Kidda]

Hmm, I can see why people are saying that. Still, I have said it now and there is no undoing that, especially when so many have quoted it.

Then challenge your own views, look at what you think and why. Don't just sit back and say well what's done is done.

What you said was bang out of order, if you write something you won't defend how strong are your convictions in the first place?

What you said was just downright anti semitism, do you feel comfortable with yourself that you hold those views?

 

[Mad4ziz]

I blame too many decades of reading the defence press.



With some kind of hypothetical weapon that's capable of wiping them all out?
Because no such weapon actually exists, does it? Even sowing nukes into all Israeli territory wouldn't kill everyone, not even in the long-term.



Well, for a start, SLCMs have a range of about 1000 miles max with a full load in the warhead, So the sub would have to be in waters that rendered such a strike possible, so they'd have to be able to go undetected through the |ndian Ocean, or the Arabian sea, or possibly even navigate the Suez Canal undetected. Unlikely.



No, I think it puts you in the camp of Walter Mitty. You're assuming that this putative commander can circumvent all the safeguards put in place and reset the firing safeties and hack around the safeguards in the guidance systems of the SLCMs.



Actually Poindexter, I didn't say that Israelis are fascists, I said that Israeli politicians indulge in quasi-fascism. Get it right.



A quick question: Which decade of the 20th century were you born in?

Blimey.

1. I have read a bit too, you know. And deception is a common thread throughout the history of warfare and statecraft. But lets agree that the press that you read is believable (unlike the press I read), and take it that Israel does have a 2nd strike nuclear capability.
2. This is where I get concerned. Lets be honest here: the starting point of this thread was more blood curdling threats from the Iranians against the Israelis. If they nuke Israel and say a million people die, is that OK because some survive?
3. If subs are detectable as easily as you suggest, they provide no 2nd strike capability. Presumably the idea is that they are pretty difficult to detect, no?
4. Surely a 2nd strike capability must have in place delegated (to the sub's commander) launch authority, in case the Israeli government is wiped out? Otherwise there is no 2nd strike capability, because the commander waits in vain for a launch instruction. So again, the scenario is not at all impossible as you imply.
5. I am happy to agree that many many Israeli's are not fascists. In fact I will hazard a guess that their nuclear sub commanders are good eggs; cool under pressure etc. But recall the hypothetical context: he knows there has been a nuke strike on Israel. He knows millions have died. He is a professional. His job is to be a 2nd strike force. The only question is: against whom?
6. I think the tenor of your points is that you know best when it comes to the bomb. Its safe and Iran should have one, and I am too fantastical to worrying too much. I think you are allowing your focus on the injustices perpetrated by Israel to cloud your judgement: you seem pretty sceptical of many things, yet strangely trusting in nukes.

 

[frogwoman]

Well, if the alternative is to say nothing and endorse everything done by Tel Aviv, then count me as an anti-zionist too.
To me, zionism and the creation of the state of Israel are the cause of constant conflict.
It wouldn't be so bad if it was kept local, but the consequences are becoming global nowadays.
From the birth of Arab nationalism, the seizure of the Suez Canal, to several wars in the Middle East, to the emergence of Muslim radicalism, to the threat of international terrorism, Al Qaeda and 9/11, the common denominator has always been Israel.

The alternative to being an anti-semitic cunt is "to say nothing and endorse everything done by Tel Aviv" isn't it. Yes. Well done, thanks for that Einstein.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Up to now I've only really been aware of weltweit in fluffier forums and I had no idea s/he was someone that if I came across socially I'd pour a pint of beer over and then leave wherever they were. It's always a shock to discover someone you thought of as inoffensive is someone with such an appalling brain.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

...and where the fuck did Karim spring from?

 

[weltweit]

Do you understand why you've got this reaction, though?

I think perhaps. yes

 

[frogwoman]

Why even link "impressions of Jews that you have met" to the actions of Israel? Why even think like that?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I'm walking away from the computer for a while. My blood pressure has shot skywards. Rage isn't very good for me atm. I have to calm down for a bit before I deal with this mod-wise.

 

[stethoscope]

I am afraid that the actions of the state of Israel make me dislike it intensly, a cruel selfish regime which has been persecuting Palestinians mercilessly for generations. I have to add to that however that the few times I have actually met a Jew, and that is not a statistically valid number, they have been the type that believe in an eye for and eye, or perhaps ten eyes for an eye and have been totally devoid of human kindness, only interested in the rights they have assigned to themselves. I find the whole situation depressing, but I have zero sympathy for the jews.

Never expected to see this sort of shit from you

 

[weltweit]

Why even link "impressions of Jews that you have met" to the actions of Israel? Why even think like that?

I am thinking about that at the moment.

 

[cesare]

I think perhaps.
I doubt many would disagree with disagreeing with the actions of the state of Israel.
So that leaves the second bit as the cause of the dispute.
I have just scan read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
I don't think I am an anti-semite.
I am however very anti what the state of Israel does to the people of Palestine. And I am anti that the people of Israel continually elect governments that continue the persecution of the Palestinians.
As to my impressions of Jews that I have met, perhaps now the less said the better.

It's not a good plan to base opinions of a race of people, on the actions of one state's government; the people who elect the government (I certainly didn't contribute to electing this UK one, for example) and making pre-judgments about a race based on a very small sample size of people you have met. Prejudice = pre-judged.

Edit: I think I've quoted more than you want, perhaps you edited it after I pressed reply. Nonetheless I think it's useful to see where you're coming from so I/we can explain the reaction if needed. Getting angry with you is natural, but it might be worth discussing with you.

 

[frogwoman]

I am thinking about that at the moment.

do you think about "impressions of Muslims you have met" when thinking about 9/11 and terrorist attacks?

 

[Karim]

The alternative to being an anti-semitic cunt is "to say nothing and endorse everything done by Tel Aviv" isn't it. Yes. Well done, thanks for that Einstein.

Not my fault if your level of understanding is below average.

You are excused, this time.

If you read my previous posts, you would know what it is the alternative of, instead of jumping to conclusion.

 

[purenarcotic]

Also, how do you know how many Jews you've met?

Here are a few links for you, welweit, I suggest you consider these links quite carefully:

http://jfjfp.com/ - Jews for Justice for Palestinians. I appreciate that their two state solution is not going to be everybody's cup of tea, but it's something.
http://www.btselem.org/ - A group who aim to educate the Israeli public about human rights violations in the occupied territories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Jews - Have a browse, you'll find plenty within that list who have done some good things in their time, who have been good people

I could post many more, but no doubt you know how to google.

I never expected to see what you said on a site like urban, not from a regular poster at any rate. Think on, weltweit, think about what has happened in the not so distant past. Think of what comments like yours resulted in.

 

[weltweit]

It's not a good plan to base opinions of a race of people, on the actions of one state's government; the people who elect the government (I certainly didn't contribute to electing this UK one, for example) and making pre-judgments about a race based on a very small sample size of people you have met. Prejudice = pre-judged.

Indeed, that is true. And it seems ok to be an anti-zionist but not an anti-semite. I am certainly an anti-zionist.

Edit: I think I've quoted more than you want, perhaps you edited it after I pressed reply. Nonetheless I think it's useful to see where you're coming from so I/we can explain the reaction if needed. Getting angry with you is natural, but it might be worth discussing with you.

It is ok, I did edit after posting. I am tbh loath to type much atm in case I produce yet more ire

 

[weltweit]

do you think about "impressions of Muslims you have met" when thinking about 9/11 and terrorist attacks?

All the contact I have had with muslims (which has all been in Britain) has been very pleasent - so no I would not consider them when thinking about 9/11.

 

[weltweit]

Here are a few links for you, welweit, I suggest you consider these links quite carefully:

http://jfjfp.com/ - Jews for Justice for Palestinians. I appreciate that their two state solution is not going to be everybody's cup of tea, but it's something.
http://www.btselem.org/ - A group who aim to educate the Israeli public about human rights violations in the occupied territories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Jews - Have a browse, you'll find plenty within that list who have done some good things in their time, who have been good people

There are undoubtedly many good and great Jewish people.
I regret confusing jewish people - with the jewish state.

I never expected to see what you said on a site like urban, not from a regular poster at any rate. Think on, weltweit, think about what has happened in the not so distant past. Think of what comments like yours resulted in.

I am quite aware of what happenned in the recent past, I have been to Bergen Belsen and studied the graves holding 10,000 people each. The holocaust was appalling. My dad was there when Belsen was liberated, he never forgot his impressions from that time.

That said, I am also aware of the suffering of the Palestinians, today.

 

[cesare]

Indeed, that is true. And it seems ok to be an anti-zionist but not an anti-semite. I am certainly an anti-zionist.

It is ok, I did edit after posting. I am tbh loath to type much atm in case I produce yet more ire

Many Jewish people are opposed to Zionism too. However you'll find it argued that extreme anti-zionism Is also anti-Semitic, this is where you get into the territory of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that froggy (I think) referred to. However, by and large people are more receptive to criticisms about how a state is run, and the ideology supporting that, than to criticisms about people as a race.

Once you start conflating political/religious ideology with a race of people, you get into some very deep water especially if you have already prejudged that race based on a small number of personal meetings/experiences.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I regret confusing jewish people - with the jewish state.

Sorry, that just doesn't wash. let me remind you why.

I have to add to that however that the few times I have actually met a Jew, and that is not a statistically valid number, they have been the type that believe in an eye for and eye, or perhaps ten eyes for an eye and have been totally devoid of human kindness, only interested in the rights they have assigned to themselves. I find the whole situation depressing, but I have zero sympathy for the jews.

That's got nothing whatsoever to do with a nation state, or a government. That's anti-semitism because you were talking about individual people. I also strongly suspect that you had made your mind up before you met any of these individuals and were already completely blinkered by nasty wrong-headed ignorant prejudice.

 

[purenarcotic]

There are undoubtedly many good and great Jewish people.
I regret confusing jewish people - with the jewish state.


I am quite aware of what happenned in the recent past, I have been to Bergen Belsen and studied the graves holding 10,000 people each. The holocaust was appalling. My dad was there when Belsen was liberated, he never forgot his impressions from that time.

That said, I am also aware of the suffering of the Palestinians, today.

Then how can you make comments that essentially boil down to 'I've never met a nice Jew'?

If you met a horrible person who was black, would you think the same of all black people?

Plenty of Jews are against the state of Israel, in fact many of the ultra orthodox Hasidic Jews believe the state of Israel should be completely smashed to bits (their gripe is a religious rather than political one that centres around the idea that the only person who can build the state of Israel is the Messiah, and as he has not yet come, Israel has no place in the world) and many moderate Jews abhor what is being done in Palestine, they utterly abhor it.

Why don't you think before you speak. There are, what, several million Jews worldwide? You honestly believe they all support Israel? You honestly think they're all horrible people?

 

[weltweit]

I also strongly suspect that you had made your mind up before you met any of these individuals and were already completely blinkered by nasty wrong-headed ignorant prejudice.

No, I don't think that is true, or fair.

 

[dylans]

There are undoubtedly many good and great Jewish people.
I regret confusing jewish people - with the jewish state.


I am quite aware of what happenned in the recent past, I have been to Bergen Belsen and studied the graves holding 10,000 people each. The holocaust was appalling. My dad was there when Belsen was liberated, he never forgot his impressions from that time.

That said, I am also aware of the suffering of the Palestinians, today.

Anti Semitism is not only wrong in itself for reasons that should be obvious and not need explaining but, when it comes from those who claim to support the struggle against the occupation, it is also a betrayal of the Palestinians. Because it plays into the hands of those who wish to equate anti Zionism with anti Semitism . To Israel and its supporters all criticism of the occupation is routinely labelled anti Semitic. All Palestine solidarity activists are familiar with this game and we have all been on the receiving end of it. Its a cynical lie and a deliberate smear but that makes it all the more important not to give them ammunition and to condemn anti Semitism when it arises. The fight against Zionism is nothing if it isn't a fight against racism.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

No, I don't think that is true, or fair.

I suspect you're the only person on this thread who thinks that. You've been hoist by your own petard.