Mountbatten's role in '68 plot against Harold Wilson.

[tim]

How can an orange march be described as working class? It exists to deny that ffs.
If we’re arguing on those terms then Royal Weddings are working class.

Royal Weddings don't often culminate with the participants being tear-gassed ,water-cannoned and having rubber bullets fired at them by the security forces

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Royal Weddings don't often culminate with the participants being tear-gassed ,water-cannoned and having rubber bullets fired at them by the security forces

Is that your definition of working class?
The orange marches exist to divide the working class along sectarian lines. It’s an anti-working class event.

 

[friedaweed]

I'm not the one muttering about trying to "eradicate" the assertion cultural identity either "over here" or "over there".

No you're the one stuck in some long lost time trying to pull the class card mate on anyone who calls your backward thinking. If progress was left to your mentality we'd be typing with our flippers our kid. Move the fuck on and think of a world where people respect each other or sleep in your own shit and enjoy it. Don't blame religion, take responsibility for yourself.

 

[friedaweed]

No they are not
Look up origin of the orange order

You can't ague with bigots, especially those that think their order of class is high and mighty because some king said it was. Old tim is a tool against his own class.

 

[tim]

Is that your definition of working class?
The orange marches exist to divide the working class along sectarian lines. It’s an anti-working class event.

What is your message to working class protestants in the North of Ireland and in the diaspora? Are they supposed to conform to the way you think they should be? Do they just abandon their identity?

 

[friedaweed]

Royal Weddings don't often culminate with the participants being tear-gassed ,water-cannoned and having rubber bullets fired at them by the security forces

No you need to add a pinch of bigotry and delusion to make that cocktail chief. Enjoy your tipple.

 

[friedaweed]

What is your message to working class protestants in the North of Ireland and in the diaspora?

Wake up there is no god and it's 2019.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You can't ague with bigots, especially those that think their order of class is high and mighty because some king said it was. Old tim is a tool against his own class.

He isn’t working class by his own admission, bud.

But that's from my middle-class English perspective.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But who are the real victims here??

(((NI Protestants)))

 

[Magnus McGinty]

What is your message to working class protestants in the North of Ireland and in the diaspora? Are they supposed to conform to the way you think they should be? Do they just abandon their identity?

If it involves fucking over other working class people then yeah.

 

[friedaweed]

He isn’t working class by his own admission, bud.

Jesus. The boy's Royally fucked up then.

 

[tim]

But who are the real victims here??

(((NI Protestants)))

Many of them are and have been real victims, as well as victimisers; which is also true for Northern Irish Catholics. I don't think much is achieved by romantising one community and demonising the other, which has long been a tendency on the left.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Many of them are and have been real victims, as well as victimisers; which is also true for Northern Irish Catholics. I don't think much is achieved by romantising one community and demonising the other, which has long been a tendency on the left.

The proper argument is to unite the working class and disregard those divisions. Those divisions exist to prevent that. It isn’t rocket science.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Many of them are and have been real victims, as well as victimisers; which is also true for Northern Irish Catholics. I don't think much is achieved by romantising one community and demonising the other, which has long been a tendency on the left.

What magnus said, but also, this isn't really historically accurate. At the start of the Troubles, it was not Protestants who were being systematically denied civil rights. It's not romanticising to say that. It's simply ahistorical to say otherwise. That's the context to the triumphalist marches and bonfires.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Many of them are and have been real victims, as well as victimisers; which is also true for Northern Irish Catholics. I don't think much is achieved by romantising one community and demonising the other, which has long been a tendency on the left.

So why wont current unionist leadership work with elected sinn fein? I mean they're twiddling their thumbs for 2 years now. Getting paid to do fuck all.
And Arlene Foster holier than thou, and her crooked unionist buddies are to blame for their cash for ash cock up that cost NI €480 million.

 

[tim]

The proper argument is to unite the working class and disregard those divisions. Those divisions exist to prevent that. It isn’t rocket science.

You don't overcome divisions by just ignoring them. You don't bring people together by trashing the cultural identity of one side.

 

[friedaweed]

Many of them are and have been real victims, as well as victimisers; which is also true for Northern Irish Catholics. I don't think much is achieved by romantising one community and demonising the other, which has long been a tendency on the left.

Neither is defending one over the other and you've stepped right in and done that not knowing the origins of someone criticising one aspect of the problem. Instead you jumped to class and religious bias which says more about you and your position in this than someone who points out a continuing part of the problem. Why the fuck would anyone want to march down the road to celebrate fucking someone over in a previous part of history? It's not tradition it's an antagonistic continuation of the problem.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You don't overcome divisions by just ignoring them. You don't bring people together by trashing the cultural identity of one side.

In the case of Orange marches and bonfires, that 'cultural identity' is 'not them', 'against them'. I don't think you've quite grasped the meaning of all this. It's not just some innocent jamboree.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

You don't overcome divisions by just ignoring them. You don't bring people together by trashing the cultural identity of one side.

One side?
The current non assembly is failing to recognise the Irish Language Act. You think that's ok? Unionists collapsed the assembly because they do not want the Irish Language Act to go through.
The cultural identity of a huge group of people in NI is routinely fucked over...officially.

 

[tim]

So why wont current unionist leadership work with elected sinn fein? I mean they're twiddling their thumbs for 2 years now. Getting paid to do fuck all.
And Arlene Foster holier than thou, and her crooked unionist buddies are to blame for their cash for ash cock up that cost NI €480 million.

Because they are as crooked as you say they are. The DUP us a populist party, that has achieved all that it has achieved by playing successfully on people's fears. It's an old tactict but works in Northern Ireland as well as it does in Israel and loads of other places

 

[friedaweed]

You don't overcome divisions by just ignoring them. You don't bring people together by trashing the cultural identity of one side.

My criticism's not contained to one side. That was your aspersion and that's the sort of defensive shit that drives division. Look inward first mate and then look out.

 

[friedaweed]

I don't think you want to grasp the meaning of all this. It's not just some innocent jamboree.

Fixed it for you LBJ.

 

[tim]

One side?
The current non assembly is failing to recognise the Irish Language Act. You think that's ok? Unionists collapsed the assembly because they do not want the Irish Language Act to go through.
The cultural identity of a hige group of people in NI is routinely fucked over...officially.

I was talking about the left not the DUP. I don't think it is acceptable or politically effective to ignore the culture of any community

 

[nogojones]

What is your message to working class protestants in the North of Ireland and in the diaspora? Are they supposed to conform to the way you think they should be? Do they just abandon their identity?

Do you think it's a good idea for southern rednecks in the US to dress up in white hoods and set fire to crosses as well?

They're just expressing their working class culture

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I was talking about the left not the DUP. I don't think it is acceptable or politically effective to ignore the culture of any community

The left? Do you mean the SDLP?

 

[N_igma]

The Orange Order are not working class. Their members come from the ranks of Big House Unionism - middle class, religious fundamentalists. The working class prods usually get relegated to being band members, the ones who look like milkmen with flutes in their mouths.

That doesn’t stop thousands of working class Protestants coming out every year to watch the Orange Order and pretend that they’re all part of one big happy family; they’re also usually the ones who end up getting arrested for rioting and disorderly behaviour.

 

[tim]

The Orange Order are not working class. Their members come from the ranks of Big House Unionism - middle class, religious fundamentalists. The working class prods usually get relegated to being band members, the ones who look like milkmen with flutes in their mouths.

That doesn’t stop thousands of working class Protestants coming out every year to watch the Orange Order and pretend that they’re all part of one big happy family; they’re also usually the ones who end up getting arrested for rioting and disorderly behaviour.

"

Describing people as "milkmen with flutes in their mouths" is not going to convince them that your going to fight alongside them for their rights and interests. That's part of what I mean by the problem with the left.

 

[tim]

The left? Do you mean the SDLP?

I mean the sort of people I hope and assume post on these boards.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

"

Describing people as "milkmen with flutes in their mouths" is not going to convince them that your going to fight alongside them for their rights and interests. That's part of what I mean by the problem with the left.

What you dont seem to realise is that unionists held all the rights ....for decades. Their interests as you call them are maintaining their position of power and keeping the boot on the heads of nationalists.

 

[N_igma]

"
Describing people as "milkmen with flutes in their mouths" is not going to convince them that your going to fight alongside them for their rights and interests. That's part of what I mean by the problem with the left.

Tim - I read your posts and I think your heart is in the right place but you’re too much of a bleeding heart liberal to understand the nuances involved.

Speaking from experience, I’ve been called a fenian cunt and worse by more of these milkmen types than I care to remember. My very existence is anathema to their supremacist ideology. I don’t give a flying fuck if they’re working class or not. That doesn’t give them a pass. Now normal working class Protestants, yes solidarity and work towards a better future that’s fine. But these cunts can go fuck themselves simple as that.