Mountbatten's role in '68 plot against Harold Wilson.

[Baronage-Phase]

Imagine Sasaferrato if you lived in a working class estate. And there was hassle...beatings ... etc. And your own government sent in the army. And the army was welcomed by the residents. Then the residents on one street started to mobilise and march for civil rights becauae they want a better life...and suddenly the army starts raiding the residents homes on that street pulling them out of their homes and strip searching them with the help of the local police. Then the residents on another street join the first street and march for equal rights to employment and suddenly the army starts shooting the group. And nobody...I mean nobody intervenes to stop this.
Imagine how you might feel?

 

[Sasaferrato]

To be fair the RAF have bigger bombers which they've used against civilians in Iraq without attracting your ire

Two entirely different scenarios, as you are well aware.

 

[Pickman's model]

Two entirely different scenarios, as you are well aware.

Yes, might makes right

 

[Serge Forward]

Imagine Sasaferrato if you lived in a working class estate. And there was hassle...beatings ... etc. And your own government sent in the army. And the army was welcomed by the residents. Then the residents on one street started to mobilise and march for civil rights becauae they want a better life...and suddenly the army starts raiding the residents homes on that street pulling them out of their homes and strip searching them with the help of the local police. Then the residents on another street join the first street and march for equal rights to employment and suddenly the army starts shooting the group. And nobody...I mean nobody intervenes to stop this.
Imagine how you might feel?

He'd be fine. He'd probably be doing the shooting.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Is that... yes, Eire would welcome Northern Ireland, or... yeas, two referendums.

My mate from Cork, admittedly a very small sample, is of the view that Eire would be insane to join with Northern Ireland. He said Eire has enough problems without importing more.

I think the problems you refer to are going to be minor compared with what will happen if the border returns.
And yes was to both questions.
That's only my opinion though.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Imagine Sasaferrato if you lived in a working class estate. And there was hassle...beatings ... etc. And your own government sent in the army. And the army was welcomed by the residents. Then the residents on one street started to mobilise and march for civil rights becauae they want a better life...and suddenly the army starts raiding the residents homes on that street pulling them out of their homes and strip searching them with the help of the local police. Then the residents on another street join the first street and march for equal rights to employment and suddenly the army starts shooting the group. And nobody...I mean nobody intervenes to stop this.
Imagine how you might feel?

I am not for one single moment suggesting that the citizens of Northern Ireland have no legitimate grievance, particularly those on the Catholic side. It was, and to an extent still is, a clusterfuck. Hindsight, that wonderful thing highlights the cockups.

Should we have been there? Difficult to know. I suspect that had we not gone, circumstances on the Catholic side may have become much worse than the bad situation that did result.

One thing is for sure, too many people on all sides died.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that... yes, Eire would welcome Northern Ireland, or... yeas, two referendums.

My mate from Cork, admittedly a very small sample, is of the view that Eire would be insane to join with Northern Ireland. He said Eire has enough problems without importing more.

Surely no one's suggesting the South re-enter the UK, for the South to join the North. It would indeed be madness, while everyone wants to go the other way

 

[Sasaferrato]

He'd be fine. He'd probably be doing the shooting.

No. Absolutely not. Placing a bomb, or shooting from cover, is murder. There is no justification for it.

 

[brogdale]

Is that... yes, Eire would welcome Northern Ireland, or... yeas, two referendums.

My mate from Cork, admittedly a very small sample, is of the view that Eire would be insane to join with Northern Ireland. He said Eire has enough problems without importing more.

Communities of people as 'problems';

I am not for one single moment suggesting that the citizens of Northern Ireland have no legitimate grievance, particularly those on the Catholic side. It was, and to an extent still is, a clusterfuck. Hindsight, that wonderful thing highlights the cockups.

Should we have been there? Difficult to know. I suspect that had we not gone, circumstances on the Catholic side may have become much worse than the bad situation that did result.

One thing is for sure, too many people on all sides died.

"we"

 

[TopCat]

Sas has put me on "permanent ignore" after sending me abuse and pics of blown up squaddies.

 

[nogojones]

Two entirely different scenarios, as you are well aware.

Yeah. Just like a stopped clock you are sometimes right.

One scenario, is a bunch of people thinking they're fighting back against an occupying army, the other is a vastly superior airforce dropping random bombs on civilians

 

[editor]

Yes nanny.

Seeing as you seem to have abused the PM system here by spamming the same FAQ-busting image multiple times, take another warning.

 

[Serge Forward]

No. Absolutely not. Placing a bomb, or shooting from cover, is murder. There is no justification for it.

Okay, but you seem happy to cheer on the murdering soldiers, paras, etc. The blood on the hands of various republican groups is but a drop compared to the veritable tsunami of blood on the hands of the British military in Ireland and across the globe.

 

[tim]

I feel left out now

I too got one.

 

[nogojones]

No. Absolutely not. Placing a bomb, or shooting from cover, is murder. There is no justification for it.

I know you're old n all, but it's been a 100 or so years since soldiers just lined up and shot at each other. You'd have to be an utter moron not to use cover.

And yes, it is murder, but you seem quite happy to condone it if the murderers are dressed in a British uniform

 

[Saul Goodman]

Sas has put me on "permanent ignore" after sending me abuse and pics of blown up squaddies.

He's putting everyone on ignore who doesn't agree with him. Won't be long before the sad, racist, Tory little-Englander only has himself to talk to.

 

[nogojones]

I too got one.

You're not special. Who hasn't received one?

 

[friedaweed]

My my what a hearty debate

 

[belboid]

No. Absolutely not. Placing a bomb, or shooting from cover, is murder. There is no justification for it.

You'll be supporting the prosecution for murder of those that carried out the Ballymurphy massacre, then

 

[friedaweed]

You'll be supporting the prosecution for murder of those that carried out the Ballymurphy massacre, then

I'm pretty sure he has Mandela down as a racist terrorist and don't get him started on Billy Bragg he'll get his third strike of the day

 

[Proper Tidy]

Sas has put me on "permanent ignore" after sending me abuse and pics of blown up squaddies.

I think he must have sent identical messages to about twenty people

 

[friedaweed]

 

[Sasaferrato]

Seeing as you seem to have abused the PM system here by spamming the same FAQ-busting image multiple times, take another warning.

I see. IRA sympathisers are fine, a touch of sarcasm isn't.

 

[Poi E]

You seem to overlook the fact that there is no pressure whatsoever in Ulster re joining Eire.

At present, the majority wish to remain part of the UK, that may change in the future of course. If I lived in Northern Ireland, I would be supporting a united Ireland, purely from the EU membership standpoint. It may well be that that is the trigger for an independence movement across the sectarian divide.

Fuck it why bother

 

[Pickman's model]

You're not special. Who hasn't received one?

 

[tim]

I see. IRA sympathisers are fine, a touch of sarcasm isn't.

I'm not convinced that sending unsolicited photos of abdominal injuries and severed limbs; accompanied by vague threats of what would happen should we meet in real life count of sarcasm.

Also, you won't find a post from me on these boards supporting the IRA. That doesn't preclude me from feeling empathy, given the general circumstances pertaining in Ireland at the time, with those who joined paramilitary groups be they Loyalist or Republican.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not convinced that sending unsolicited photos of abdominal injuries and severed limbs; accompanied by vague threats of what would happen should we meet in real life count of sarcasm.

Also, you won't find a post from me on these boards supporting the IRA. That doesn't preclude me from feeling empathy, given the general circumstances pertaining in Ireland at the time, with those who joined paramilitary groups be they Loyalist or Republican.

Where'd you stand on gusty spence? He had quite a bit to do with getting the general circumstances of the time going

 

[editor]

I see. IRA sympathisers are fine, a touch of sarcasm isn't.

Let me make it perfectly fucking clear for you. ANYONE spamming poster's inboxes with gory images can expect a warning and if they continue, a temp ban. I've no fucking idea what the IRA has to do with this very simple explanation of the rules that have been in place on this board for at least 20 years.

The other rule you may not want to start immediately heeding is rule one: don't be a dick. Think before you post again.

 

[tim]

Where'd you stand on gusty spence? He had quite a bit to do with getting the general circumstances of the time going

Involved in brutally getting "things" going in the mid-sixties and to some degree bringing it to close in the 90's I've met Quakers who worked with him towards the end of the Troubles abd at the time of the ceasefires, who liked and respected him. More importantly he seemed to have the respect of the Republicans.

I found this interview with him made in 1972, after he'd been "kidnapped" by his own organisation whilst family leave from gaol.



And in the 90s


So an intelligent self-styled leftwing Loyalist with a lot of blood in his hands who seemed capable of regretting/repenting; and a bit of a poseur. But that's from my middle-class English perspective.

 

[bluescreen]

As this thread has morphed it seems a good place to mention this thoughtful programme looking at the Troubles and the GFA in the light of Brexit. Fergal Keane is good value, as usual, and I'm not sure he really needed the foil of Peter Taylor except to satisfy some BBC concept of 'balance'.

The journalists Peter Taylor and Fergal Keane have each been indelibly shaped by their experience of reporting the Northern Ireland Troubles. Both witnessed the horror and pain of the conflict close up. Both would see the mixed fortunes brought by peace and reconciliation.

Peter Taylor first arrived in Northern Ireland on the night of Bloody Sunday in 1972. An Englishman with no family or personal connections with Ireland, he would go on to become one of the most distinguished journalists associated with the Troubles.

Fergal Keane grew up in County Cork and came to Belfast to work as a reporter for RTE in the late 1980s. His family's past is deeply entwined with Ireland's history of armed insurrection, stretching back to the Irish Civil War and beyond.

50 years on from the beginning of the Troubles, Peter Taylor and Fergal Keane are back in Northern Ireland to talk about what they saw and ask what it all means now.

37 minutes

BBC Radio 4 - Troubles Shared