Mountbatten's role in '68 plot against Harold Wilson.

[Baronage-Phase]

I mean the sort of people I hope and assume post on these boards.

That's not an answer.
NI is a political mess. McGuinness and Trimble were leaders together. There was hope then. They respected each other and worked towards peace. The two biggest parties in NI are not working together. They're not power sharing because one section is corrupt and doesnt like having that pointed out.

 

[tim]

Do you think it's a good idea for southern rednecks in the US to dress up in white hoods and set fire to crosses as well?

They're just expressing their working class culture

Northern Irish Protestants have been victims of sectarian violence in the same way that Northern Irish Catholics have been. If just being a Protestant (or a Catholic) get you killed or maimed, it's not surprising that people cling to and exaggerate that identity. That's what persecution does to you.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Northern Irish Protestants have been victims of sectarian violence in the same way that Northern Irish Catholics have been. If just being a Protestant (or a Catholic) get you killed or maimed, it's not surprising that people cling to and exaggerate that identity. That's what persecution does to you.

Persecution, you say. That's a word with a particular meaning that is very relevant to this situation. So who was it that was being persecuted in NI?

It's hard to say this without sounding rude, but you really don't have the first idea what you're talking about. Catholics were second-class citizens in NI, which is where a comparison with racist segregated America is relevant. There are equivalent civil rights issues and parallels.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

"some very fine people on both sides"

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Northern Irish Protestants have been victims of sectarian violence in the same way that Northern Irish Catholics have been. If just being a Protestant (or a Catholic) get you killed or maimed, it's not surprising that people cling to and exaggerate that identity. That's what persecution does to you.

Sorry. But unionists have never been persecuted in NI. The six counties in NI was set up as separate from the rest of Ireland FOR them....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's your name? Sorry, how do you spell that?

McGuinness.

Sorry no vacancies.

Maginnis.

Step over here, we may have something for you.

 

[tim]

What you dont seem to realise is that unionists held all the rights ....for decades. Their interests as you call them are maintaining their position of power and keeping the boot on the heads of nationalists.

Middle class protestants had the power for decades, working class Protestants, didn't. In general they were higher in the pile than Catholics but still poor and deprived. Life in Protestant ghettos like the Shankill was still fucking horrendous.

As to not realising. Well I see little difference between the way Northern Ireland was structured than the way that most British or French colonial ventures were structured; divide and rule give excessive power to one community at the expense of the others, and make that community aware of the retribution it will face should the other side take power.

 

[tim]

What's your name? Sorry, how do you spell that?

McGuinness.

Sorry no vacancies.

Maginnis.

Step over here, we may have something for you.

But still a pretty shit job

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah there were poor whites in Alabama too.

 

[bluescreen]

Sorry. But unionists have never been persecuted in NI. The six counties in NI was set up as separate from the rest of Ireland FOR them....

You're forgetting affirmative action, and how to the privileged equality feels like oppression.
ECNI - Affirmative action/Positive action by employers - Equality Commission NI

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Middle class protestants had the power for decades, working class Protestants, didn't. In general they were higher in the pile than Catholics but still poor and deprived. Life in Protestant ghettos like the Shankill was still fucking horrendous.

As to not realising. Well I see little difference between the way Northern Ireland was structured than the way that most British or French colonial ventures were structured; divide and rule give excessive power to one community at the expense of the others, and make that community aware of the retribution it will face should the other side take power.

So what the fuck are you even arguing now?

You were wrong about the Orange Order being a fundamentally working class thing. So it is part of the shitty apparatus of 'divide and rule'? Yet to speak against it is to seek to deny w/c people their cultural identity? You're all over the shop.

 

[N_igma]

Middle class protestants had the power for decades, working class Protestants, didn't. In general they were higher in the pile than Catholics but still poor and deprived. Life in Protestant ghettos like the Shankill was still fucking horrendous.

As to not realising. Well I see little difference between the way Northern Ireland was structured than the way that most British or French colonial ventures were structured; divide and rule give excessive power to one community at the expense of the others, and make that community aware of the retribution it will face should the other side take power.

I don’t get your point. You can make the exact same point about white working class people and BME in Britain but I’m 100% sure that if someone came on here defending racism because white working class people are shat on too you’d be the first to take about structural racism and inequality. Which one is it Tim?

 

[tim]

Sorry. But unionists have never been persecuted in NI. The six counties in NI was set up as separate from the rest of Ireland FOR them....

Protestants were killed for being Protestants during the troubles. Persecution by non-state actors is still persecution. And those victims were not members of the Unionist elite

 

[Celyn]

"

Describing people as "milkmen with flutes in their mouths" is not going to convince them that your going to fight alongside them for their rights and interests. That's part of what I mean by the problem with the left.

What rights are the "Orange" people denied, and what interests of theirs are being ignored?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Protestants were killed for being Protestants during the troubles. Persecution by non-state actors is still persecution. And those victims were not members of the Unionist elite

Innocent people on both sides were killed.
Nobody denies that.

 

[bluescreen]

Protestants were killed for being Protestants during the troubles. Persecution by non-state actors is still persecution. And those victims were not members of the Unionist elite

True. No one denies the Troubles were sectarian, or that some protestant victims were innocent of anything but being protestant in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that is not at all the same thing as being institutionally victimised, rather it was a result of other people being institutionally victimised. I am surprised you can’t see the difference.

 

[Saul Goodman]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

True. No one denies the Troubles were sectarian, or that some protestant victims were innocent of anything but being protestant in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that is not at all the same thing as being institutionally victimised, rather it was a result of other people being institutionally victimised. I am surprised you can’t see the difference.

And the Orange Order was an integral part of the structure that enforced that institutional victimisation. Fuck the Orange marches. Cultural identity ffs. Find a better one.

 

[Humberto]

The Tories threw it out when they in all practicalities went into a coalition with the DUP. Strengthened their hand in return for propping them up.

 

[tim]

I don’t get your point. You can make the exact same point about white working class people and BME in Britain but I’m 100% sure that if someone came on here defending racism because white working class people are shat on too you’d be the first to take about structural racism and inequality. Which one is it Tim?

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people. Whatever you think of the Orange Lodge as an institution, being "Orange" is part of that Protestant identity, a legitimate Irish identity. The Irish tricolour was designed to reflect that bicultural Irish identity

"The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between Orange and Green and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."

Flag of Ireland - Wikipedia

Still being "Green" is seen as being more authentically Irish than being "Orange" after 400 years it is still acceptable to dismiss Protestants as "white settlers". Rebel songs are wonderful, the Sash is still beyond the Pale.

 

[Pickman's model]

Many of them are and have been real victims, as well as victimisers; which is also true for Northern Irish Catholics. I don't think much is achieved by romantising one community and demonising the other, which has long been a tendency on the left.

When do you think the oo started killing taigs?

 

[likesfish]

If your cultural identiy revolves around
Kill
All
Taigs
Its a shit culture and needs to go in the dustbin.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people. Whatever you think of the Orange Lodge as an institution, being "Orange" is part of that Protestant identity, a legitimate Irish identity. The Irish tricolour was designed to reflect that bicultural Irish identity

"The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between Orange and Green and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."

Flag of Ireland - Wikipedia

Still being "Green" is seen as being more authentically Irish than being "Orange" after 400 years it is still acceptable to dismiss Protestants as "white settlers". Rebel songs are wonderful, the Sash is still beyond the Pale.

The sash is so far beyond the pale ireland's most famous rebel band have released a recording of it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people. Whatever you think of the Orange Lodge as an institution, being "Orange" is part of that Protestant identity, a legitimate Irish identity. The Irish tricolour was designed to reflect that bicultural Irish identity

You've shifted the goalposts here. Nigma didn't speak of 'English working class'. If an English working class person were to claim that their 'identity' was specifically 'white working class', that would be eminently contestable. What does that mean? Whom are you excluding from your group and on what basis? Who else who qualifies for your group by your criteria would agree or disagree with your categorising of a group like that?

You sound just like Arlene Foster, btw. When you find yourself in agreement with Arlene Foster about, well, just about anything, you probably should take a pause to think.

 

[tim]

The sash is so far beyond the pale ireland's most famous rebel band have released a recording of it

You mean, presumably, the version in the YouTube link in my post. It's still beyond the Pale for plenty here, even if it wasn't for the "Wolfe Tones".

 

[tim]

You've shifted the goalposts here. Nigma didn't speak of 'English working class'. If an English working class person were to claim that their 'identity' was specifically 'white working class', that would be eminently contestable. What does that mean? Whom are you excluding from your group and on what basis? Who else who qualifies for your group by your criteria would agree or disagree with your categorising of a group like that?

Would saying you were from a English Jewish or Catholic working class background be equally contestable?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Would saying you were from a English Jewish or Catholic working class background be equally contestable?

Do you even know what you mean when you throw around words like 'identity'? It seems to me that you mean precious little with the word, yet you give it huge import nonetheless.

You shifted the goalposts here again, btw, from 'identity' to 'from an XXX background'. Bad habit.

 

[tim]

When do you think the oo started killing taigs?

Either before or after others started killing huns.

 

[A380]

Royal Weddings don't often culminate with the participants being tear-gassed ,water-cannoned and having rubber bullets fired at them by the security forces

A pity. I’d deffo watch the next one if I thought there was a chance of seeing Edward get water cannoned or Ann ( an honorary member of many of the security forces) shoot Andrew in the knackers with an AEP.

 

[tim]

Do you even know what you mean when you throw around words like 'identity'? It seems to me that you mean precious little with the word, yet you give it huge import nonetheless.

You shifted the goalposts here again, btw, from 'identity' to 'from an XXX background'. Bad habit.

Religious background, particularly, but not exclusively, in societies which are divided in sectarian lines forms a part of your cultural identity. I could probably give a more nuanced view but as it's you, this will do

Cultural identity is the identity or feeling of belonging to a group. It is part of a person's self-conception and self-perception and is related to nationality, ethnicity, religion, social class, generation, locality or any kind of social group that has its own distinct culture. In this way, cultural identity is both characteristic of the individual but also of the culturally identical group of members sharing the same cultural identity or upbringing.[1]

..Cultural identity - Wikipedia

As to the identity/background issue. I tend to use near synonyms to avoid being tediously repetitious. Perhaps it is a bad habit. You seem to follow my posts assiduously, so clearly you are one person I'm not at risk of boring.