Mountbatten's role in '68 plot against Harold Wilson.

[Saul Goodman]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people. Whatever you think of the Orange Lodge as an institution, being "Orange" is part of that Protestant identity, a legitimate Irish identity. The Irish tricolour was designed to reflect that bicultural Irish identity

"The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between Orange and Green and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."

Flag of Ireland - Wikipedia

Still being "Green" is seen as being more authentically Irish than being "Orange" after 400 years it is still acceptable to dismiss Protestants as "white settlers". Rebel songs are wonderful, the Sash is still beyond the Pale.

You think the Orange matches have anything at all to do with celebrating being a protestant? Their only purpose is to rub shit in the faces of Catholics.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You think the Orange matches have anything at all to do with celebrating being a protestant? Their only purpose is to rub shit in the faces of Catholics.

You know that could be construed as hate speech...

 

[tim]

You think the Orange matches have anything at all to do with celebrating being a protestant? Their only purpose is to rub shut in the faces of Catholics.

The baiting is big part of what's going on, but like all such rituals it's also about creating bonds of friendship and solidarity.

 

[tim]

You know that could be construed as hate speech...

Is that the "cautioned" voice if experience speaking

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is that the "cautioned" voice if experience speaking

No, it was an ironic comment on the absurdity of the position that sees Orange marches as part of a cultural identity that deserves special protection.

It's the kind of thing Arlene Foster would say.

It's the kind of thing you would say.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

but like all such rituals it's also about creating bonds of friendship and solidarity.

do you say that about marches organised by the national front / EDL / whatever the fuck they are calling themselves this week ?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The KKK was really just a jolly summer camp, with fires.

 

[tim]

do you say that about marches organised by the national front / EDL / whatever the fuck they are calling themselves this week ?

I probably would, I'd say it about a crowd of supporters at a sporting event and people going to the proms too. That doesn't mean that I'd see all activities as equally legitimate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Religious background, particularly, but not exclusively, in societies which are divided in sectarian lines forms a part of your cultural identity. I could probably give a more nuanced view but as it's you, this will do

..Cultural identity - Wikipedia

As to the identity/background issue. I tend to use near synonyms to avoid being tediously repetitious. Perhaps it is a bad habit. You seem to follow my posts assiduously, so clearly you are one person I'm not at risk of boring.

lol

Patronising me after displaying zero understanding of the things you've been talking about. But crack on, Arlene. It's clearly me that's lacking in understanding and nuance.

 

[N_igma]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people. Whatever you think of the Orange Lodge as an institution, being "Orange" is part of that Protestant identity, a legitimate Irish identity. The Irish tricolour was designed to reflect that bicultural Irish identity

Where have I once denied the right of Northern Irish Protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants? I literally just said I am happy to show solidarity with working class Protestants. ‘Nobody contests the identity of working class people to be English working class people?’ Who is contesting Protestant working class people to be Protestant working class people? Absolutely no one. LBJ also called you out on your conflation of terminology with that post which needs no further examination.

By the way, Protestants are part and parcel of the culture and fabric of this society there’s no question about it. Again, I have no qualms about that and that culture should be nourished and protected.

I’m just going to call you scarecrow from now on the amount of strawman arguments you’re arguing.

Religious background, particularly, but not exclusively, in societies which are divided in sectarian lines forms a part of your cultural identity. I could probably give a more nuanced view but as it's you, this will do

..Cultural identity - Wikipedia

As to the identity/background issue. I tend to use near synonyms to avoid being tediously repetitious. Perhaps it is a bad habit. You seem to follow my posts assiduously, so clearly you are one person I'm not at risk of boring.

You walk into a debate on Ireland and bring Wikipedia out. Are you seriously that thick?

The baiting is big part of what's going on, but like all such rituals it's also about creating bonds of friendship and solidarity.

And here lies the nub of it all. Marching and celebrating the subjugation of Catholic Irish people under a Protestant hegemonic Ascendancy is just a bit of craic sure we’re just having a laugh and making friends. Go fuck yourself.

 

[krtek a houby]

The baiting is big part of what's going on, but like all such rituals it's also about creating bonds of friendship and solidarity.

... through hatred. It's not something Ireland really needs, now and come reunification.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The baiting is big part of what's going on, but like all such rituals it's also about creating bonds of friendship and solidarity.

Orange marches are not about bonds of friendship and solidarity. They are aggressive victory marches and many demand a very deliberste route that goes through predominatly Catholic areas. This leads to Catholic residents either having to remain in their homes or abandon their homes on the 12th July as the orange order marches past their homes banging drums and playing victory music. The marches themselves celebrate King Billy defeating the deposed Catholic King James II.

In an Irish context, that war was a sectarian and ethnic conflict, in many ways a re-run of the Irish Confederate Wars of 50 years earlier. For the Jacobites, the war was fought for Irish sovereignty, religious tolerance for Catholicism, and land ownership. The Catholic upper classes had lost almost all their lands after Cromwell's conquest, as well as the right to hold public office, practise their religion, and sit in the Irish Parliament. To these ends, under Richard Talbot, 1st Earl of Tyrconnel, they had raised an army to restore James after the Glorious Revolution. By 1690, they controlled all of Ireland except for the province of Ulster. Most of James II's troops at the Boyne were Irish Catholics; however, there were also Scots-Irish Presbyterians fighting for James II.

The majority of Irish people were Jacobites and supported James II due to his 1687 Declaration of Indulgence or, as it is also known, the Declaration for the Liberty of Conscience, that granted religious freedom to all denominations in England and Scotland and also due to James II's promise to the Irish Parliament of an eventual right to self-determination.

Conversely, for the Williamites, the war was about maintaining Protestant and English rule in Ireland. They feared for their lives and their property if James and his Catholic supporters were to rule Ireland, nor did they trust the promise of tolerance, seeing the Declaration of Indulgence as a ploy to re-establish Catholicism as the sole state religion. In particular, they dreaded a repeat of the Irish Rebellion of 1641 which had been marked by widespread killing. For these reasons, Protestants fought en massefor William of Orange. Many Williamite troops at the Boyne, including their very effective irregular cavalry, were Ulster Protestants,

This is what the Orange Order celebrates. It's absolute sectarianism in a modern context
You dont find ulster catholics or any Irish groups celebrating in any deliberate fashion any scenario involving Catholicism over ruling Protestantism. Catholics / Jacobites wanted religious freedom for all denominations so no matter what way The Orange Order marches appear today, they are a celebration of the very opposite of religious freedom. They are sectarian and divisive. Those who take part in them know exactly what they are about.

 

[likesfish]

The KKK was really just a jolly summer camp, with fires.

"you should join the klan I heard they do a good barbeque" from a black neighbour of my brother dade County florida more of a racist rotary club than actual terrorists but that's florida for you. Not exactly sane.

Majority of Orange order marched cause no bother but then the shit heads only turn up for the ones where they are garunteed to cause aggro.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

"you should join the klan I heard they do a good barbeque" from a black neighbour of my brother dade County florida more of a racist rotary club than actual terrorists but that's florida for you. Not exactly sane.

You dont think he was being sarcastic?

 

[Pickman's model]

/

 

[Pickman's model]

You mean, presumably, the version in the YouTube link in my post. It's still beyond the Pale for plenty here, even if it wasn't for the "Wolfe Tones".

when there used to be a market on the site of the gaumont cinema in north finchley (now the arts depot) there was a stall which sold both rebel and orange music, always struck me as a curious combination of tapes to sell but undoubtedly they did as it was there for some years

 

[Poi E]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? ]

The rights of all Protestants in Ireland must be respected.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people.

How on earth did you draw a correlation between these two things? It's akin to saying "We must defend the rights of the KKK, because armadillos".

 

[Celyn]

when there used to be a market on the site of the gaumont cinema in north finchley (now the arts depot) there was a stall which sold both rebel and orange music, always struck me as a curious combination of tapes to sell but undoubtedly they did as it was there for some years

Here's a wee song from Matt McGinn. (The visuals are not all important or relevant)

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Is defending the right of Northern Irish protestants to be Northern Irish Protestants racist? Nobody contests the identity of English working class people to be English working class people. Whatever you think of the Orange Lodge as an institution, being "Orange" is part of that Protestant identity, a legitimate Irish identity. The Irish tricolour was designed to reflect that bicultural Irish identity

You have it mixed up. Being Orange in NI is part of a Unionist protestant identity. A fraternity of sectarian brothers with links to loyalists.
There are orange order lodges in the ROI. You dont see them being triumphal and marching around banging massive lambay drums in Catholic areas....because they are not tied to Unionism anymore.
The NI lodges are particularly, annoyingly in your face.

I've a very good friend whose family left NI during the troubles. She grew up as a catholic living in a small seaside place that was predominantly protestant. 11 months of the year her mother and her protestant neighbours were civil and reasonably friendly. Not "borrowing sugar" friendly but reasonable... but once July came around the protestant neighbours got weird and her mum would notice beung shunned not spoken to, not acknowledged...ignored in local shops. And these were the nicer protestants. Her father has all sorts of stories of being beaten up for being a catholic worker. This was before the troubles. They left when the troubles started as things got progressively worse.

In the ROI there are plenty COI people living side by side with catholic neighbours. There's no trouble cos nobody gives a toss what you believe or dont believe here. Its not a big thing. But in NI the protestants MADE it a big deal. And it'll take a long time for that shit to dilute. That's all it needs really. Younger generations to realise its all a load of crap. And just get on with living together.
This had definitely started in the trad nationalist catholic areas. Not so sure it has happened to the same extent in loyalist unionist areas...then again they have more to lose. Catholics and nationalists have nothing to lose and everything to gain from a working peace process and possible eventual successful vote in favour of a united Ireland. The unionists are absolutely terrified of a day when more people want to be part of Ireland than the UK. so naturally they are clinging to hard lines and sectarianism. Their lives are spent ensuring they maintain their power and to do that they have to be seen as different to everyone else in NI. They have to cling to this false crap. Staunch unionists absolutely detest catholic nationalists. And that has to change for NI to work. At the moment they think the UK will support them completely. But in time the UK will really get sick of propping them up.

That's not an identity. That's a position. A mindset. A power trip. A desire to dominate over others.a need to subjugate another group to prevent their voice being heard. To drive out others who could oppose you. That is not a "cultural" identity and they no more want to be Irish than the man on the moon. They want to be English. That's their whole mo.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

You don't overcome divisions by just ignoring them. You don't bring people together by trashing the cultural identity of one side.

You dont get it.
Extreme Unionists (increasing in number) do not want to bring people together

 

[krtek a houby]

Like most Irish people, I want to see an inclusive, united Ireland. And by inclusive, I mean a country that will respect all "traditions". But perhaps the more wilder excesses of unionism will be made redundant in such an Ireland. I don't know if it bears repeating but being a Protestant in Ireland does not mean you are a Unionist. And, of course, not all unionists are of the swivel eyed loon variety, either.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Like most Irish people, I want to see an inclusive, united Ireland. And by inclusive, I mean a country that will respect all "traditions". But perhaps the more wilder excesses of unionism will be made redundant in such an Ireland. I don't know if it bears repeating but being a Protestant in Ireland does not mean you are a Unionist. And, of course, not all unionists are of the swivel eyed loon variety, either.

Absolutely. David Trimble became much more open. Even dare I say it, Ian Paisley finally realised people had to work together and that peace was a far better future than sectarianism.

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely. David Trimble became much more open. Even dare I say it, Ian Paisley finally realised people had to work together and that peace was a far better future than sectarianism.

But not i note Arlene Foster or her band of chancers

 

[Baronage-Phase]

But not i note Arlene Foster or her band of chancers

Nah. She's a throwback...unfortunately. it'll be too late when she realises her own bigotry and tries to change. History repeating itself...

Eta I hope I'm wrong and she cops herself on but...

 

[Pickman's model]

Nah. She's a throwback...unfortunately. it'll be too late when she realises her own bigotry and tries to change. History repeating itself...

Eta I hope I'm wrong and she cops herself on but...

The final denouement will come when she's running away from the Garda over a bog in Tyrone and sinks without trace

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The final denouement will come when she's running away from the Garda over a bog in Tyrone and sinks without trace

That is some image....

 

[Pickman's model]

That is some image....

I'm not sure you've grasped it all

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I'm not sure you've grasped it all

Oh I have

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'll just leave this here. Fuck him, the old nonce. May he rot in hell.

A KINCORA BOY ABUSED BY MOUNTBATTEN COMMITTED SUICIDE A FEW MONTHS LATER

Several Partition narratives mention his fondness for young male company. I think that from the '50s-onward it was accepted in aristo circles that he was a pederast. After all, fucking working class kids, what's the harm in that?