Callie
Pivoting
Or they'll just make sure they attack when noone else it present.
Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency
- Thread starter ElizabethofYork
- Start date
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
The advice was given in the late 1950s, and should be viewed by the ethos of that time.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
What an incredibly brave woman, to waive her right to privacy in order to ensure her abusers did not get to benefit from it as well.Dear God. That's really awful. Her children thought she had Alzheimer's
OTOH, I really have no words for the behaviour of the husband that wouldn't comically diminish the awful horror of his actions. I hope his actions torture him to his dying breath.
Or for the behaviour of all the other men involved.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tbh we don't know whether the kicking he got was just what was necessary to stop him continuing his attack. The possession of a knife is mentioned, and if he'd produced it to make people intervening back off he got no more than his actions merited. There's assumptions that the people stepping in gave him more of a kicking than might have been proportionate but I don't see sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Absolutely, yes.
I sincerely hope that they, too, get their moment in the dock. People need to realise that behaviour has consequences, and behaviour as disgusting than this should have grave consequences - theirs is no less disgusting simply because it was facilitated by someone else.
ETA: and let us not forget the woman in the centre of this. Sure, she has been courageous in doing what she has done, but she will undoubtedly carry the burden of knowing what has been done to her by someone she presumably trusted, and maybe loved. Not to mention the effect of this on her children.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
If the injuries he suffered were in the cause of preventing his attack, then, frankly, expecting her rescuers to finely calibrate the level of violence to just what was necessary to stop further harm is a big ask. And I'd rather that they erred on the side of caution than held back and thereby allowed her to suffer greater harm.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Very much so. It sounds like left to his own devices he'd have killed her.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Sounds like a pretty nailed-on case for "reasonable force". But I completely agree with those who are pointing out that violence isn't the solution to the problem. It's just - sometimes - the only way in the moment to stop the "problem" (an inadequate word) being worse for the victim.
Callie
Pivoting
True. I was thinking that but not sure what relevance it has to the thread about VAGW in the here and now?
felixthecat
are we there yet?
Medical professionals - we have the HARK questions on a laminated sheet and ask every patient it any of the questions apply to them
We're mainly an msk practice but we get a couple of people a week who answer yes to one or more questions.
We're mainly an msk practice but we get a couple of people a week who answer yes to one or more questions.
(It's obviously good you have them and ask the questions butMedical professionals - we have the HARK questions on a laminated sheet and ask every patient it any of the questions apply to them
We're mainly an msk practice but we get a couple of people a week who answer yes to one or more questions.
that they're needed and people answer yes. And probably a lot more who answer no when the real answer is actually yes.)
trashpony
Hag
When I was pregnant there were pouches with stickers in them on the back of the toilet doors in the maternity clinic I went to so you could put a sticker on your wee sample to let the medical team know you were at risk.Medical professionals - we have the HARK questions on a laminated sheet and ask every patient it any of the questions apply to them
We're mainly an msk practice but we get a couple of people a week who answer yes to one or more questions.
Pregnancy is often a trigger for domestic violence - 1 in 6 cases of men abusing their partner begin when she’s pregnant
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
I went to a training session today , it was about DV perpetrators. Technically we can evict a tenant if they are found guilty of DV , provided the court grants possession. However, there is a reluctance to take these cases to court (I've never been involved in such a case in nearly 30 years in Social Housing) as there is a risk of more violence against the victim of the DV.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
It's so 'normal' that there's an NHS page about it.
Domestic abuse in pregnancy
Find out about the risks of domestic abuse and violence in pregnancy, and where you can go for help if it is happening to you.
www.nhs.uk
PTK
Paul Kegan
I am astonished.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
I'm genuinely in two opinions on this. The whole nature versus nurture thing. Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no...
On the one hand, it is mainly women who are raising children, so how do they (the children) turn out the way they do? Don't women bear some responsibility for how their children turn out?*
But then again, clearly women aren't responsible for men's (mis)behaviour and crimes, obviously.
*I mean that question in a philosophical question kind of way, rather than a blamey kind of way, because I'm genuinely confused/interested as to how the Venn diagram gets drawn up here.
What responsibility do women, ie mothers (and also, I hasten to add, fathers and schools and society more generally) bear for how children turn out, for the crimes they commit? What about parents who set a bad example? Or what about parents who are neglectful? What about parents who are violent or abusive in other ways, emotionally/psychologically?
And where do you draw the line? I mean, Fred West's mother. To what extent, if any, was his upbringing a factor in him turning out to be a serial killer. Or the Yorkshire Ripper. Or [insert serial killer/rapist name here]. Are some people just inherently bad? Are some people even born evil?
But then again, there's that case of the 12-year-old rioter awaiting sentencing because his mum fucked off to Ibiza on holiday (in defiance of a court summons/order) rather than accompanying her juvenile delinquent child to court. I mean, what chance does that child have in life if that's how much she cares about him? Is that setting the best example? Should that mother be held responsible to any extent for her child's behaviour?
[As an aside: I might be wrong, but I'm guessing there's a bf who's not the 12yo boy's father, who's pointed out to mum that the holiday was pre-booked and he/they will lose the money if she doesn't go, and they can't reschedule, and if she doesn't go on the holiday he will dump her, and she's been put in the situation of having to choose between the bf and her son, and the bf won.]
Or then again, I shared that link above in which Akala schooled Piers Morgan, by pointing out how deprivation is a major factor when it comes to eg (male on male) knife crime. What about all those other environmental factors?
And coming back to your point, ElizabethofYork that it's not the mother's fault if the man is a violent misogynist... and coming back to the Venn diagram... where's the crossover point?
At what point is it the case that a mother is responsible for their child's behaviour, schooling them and keeping them in check (because it's not like they're Damian from The Omen, they're not inherently evil, right), but then that flips and the mother isn't responsible, oh no, no sirree. Is that, like, at 17-years-old and 364 days? Versus 18-years-old? Where does the line fall?
How much of how a male child turns out to be a man who is a woman injuring/killing misogynist is the responsibility of his mother for his upbringing?
How much of how a male child turns out to be a man who is a woman injuring/killing misogynist is the responsibility of his (absent?) father for his upbringing?
How much of how a male child turns out to be a man who is a woman injuring/killing misogynist is the responsibility of the education system for his schooling?
How much of how a male child turns out to be a man who is a woman injuring/killing misogynist is the responsibility of society for failing to inculcate appropriate morals and values?
How much of how a male child turns out to be a man who is a woman injuring/killing misogynist can be pinned on social media, the likes of Andrew Tate, PUAs, violent porn, etc?
I don't know the answers, I'm just asking the questions. Because while I wholeheartedly want to agree that women are not responsible in any way shape or form for men being (becoming) violent misogynists, that begs the questions who, how, what did turn them into violent misogynists?
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Yes. I have appointments in my local women's hospital. (Gynae and also bladder stuff.)It's so 'normal' that there's an NHS page about it.
Domestic abuse in pregnancy
Find out about the risks of domestic abuse and violence in pregnancy, and where you can go for help if it is happening to you.
There are posters in many ladies loo cubicles signposting to services for women suffering from domestic abuse.
And in some loos, they have different coloured marker pens, like, 'Use the blue pen to write your name on your urine sample pot if it's okay to have a joint consultation with your partner. Use the red pen to write your name on your urine sample pot if you want to speak with us privately without your partner.' So that when the women are sent to the loo to produce a urine sample, they can discretely signal to staff that there's a problem with their partner being present during the consultation, so they have a chance to talk privately.
mentalchik
"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit."
In my sisters case having a child was the trigger....a seemingly mild mannered, pleasant man turned into a controlling violent psycho....we only found out about it because her best friend informed my mum.....took 3 attempts to get her to leave, the last straw being her waking up with a pillow over her face and hands round her neck.....it never got reported as she didn't want it.....he continued his campaign right through all the continuing custody battle ( he could not accept not having full custody, not for the sake of his child but because he didn't have control)....eventually a judge saw through him and my neice never saw or heard from him again and to this day.
I had a small circle of female friends back then....every one of them had been the victim of violence from previous boyfriends
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Fuck that's shameful.
I was talking to a male friend the other week and was surprised he'd never heard of 'Ask for Angela'. (Although given it's generally advertised in women's toilets, I guess I shouldn't have been.)
He was surprised when I explained that it's really just a more formal way of doing what women have been doing forever. I think because we don't talk about this really, men may have no idea just how common this shit is.
He was surprised when I explained that it's really just a more formal way of doing what women have been doing forever. I think because we don't talk about this really, men may have no idea just how common this shit is.
story
Changing the facts
This being the 2020's, what is the updated version of the best way boys should be raised so as not to grow up as violent misogynists?
I'm assuming the responsibility doesn't fall exclusively to the mothers.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Shameful. So he got the same sentence as the rioters who damaged property and chucked stuff at coppers.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I do find that quite astonishing - I've been seeing variations on the theme of "Ask Angela" in pubs and similar venues for years. Maybe the difference is that I was curious about it, and found out more - perhaps lots of us don't even have that curiosity. Which is, maybe, part of the problem.
story
Changing the facts
I thought it took a village to raise a child?
So did I, but I've been shut out and warned off enough times now that I know it's unacceptable to step in. Ever.
Seems to be permitted with kids for whom I'm designated godparent so I stick to that.
I feel that ignoring bad behaviour is shitty and neglectful. But intervening and having everything escalate strikes me as even more damaging for the child. So I stand by or retreat.
I've been physically threatened when intervening in public. Like when a kid was throwing books at the shopkeeper. I started to put my hands up and my body between the primary school child and the scared shopkeeper and the mother went for me. That's just one example. This kinda stuff does make it very difficult to show the child that different adults have different ways of dealing with things.
This was an extreme example. I've also been told not to correct a child's terrible table manners (crawling onto the table and knocking over my glass) by the mother. Child was airlifted out by furious mother. I was not shouting or waving my arms around (I asked others if I'd been to loud etc).
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Yep. My thoughts exactly when I saw the sentencing.
He very nearly avoided a custodial, unbelievably. I heard through my solicitor that he was looking at probation because, and get this, it was his first offence and 'out of character'. The cunt overpowered me, sat on top of me and stabbed me 12 times with a large chef's knife in what was described by the police as a 'frenzied attack'. He only stopped because I pretended to be dead. He believed he'd killed me. I nearly died twice, had a punctured lung, damaged liver, cut artery at the back of my head, multiple stab wounds. But ok, yeh, first offence, give him probation eh?
He only got a custodial because I was advised to and gave one of the first victim impact statements at the time (they were new back then), explaining exactly the effect it had had on me, and the judge took this very seriously.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Jesus wept, sojourner. It's unbelievable. There seems to be some sort of underlying thing that the woman brought it on herself, or that she drove the poor man to it. If the same man had attacked some random in the street, he'd be treated far more harshly. But because the woman belonged to him, it wasn't so serious.
story
Changing the facts
I’m so sorry that happened to you sojourner .
And I’m very glad indeed that you’ve now built a life that’s happy and fulfilling. That’s a real testament to your strength, resilience, and determination.
Thank you for sharing your story. Some people find this stuff too abstract to grasp. Hearing this extreme stuff from one of our own could help someone grasp the magnitude of the issue.
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