Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency
- Thread starter ElizabethofYork
- Start date
mentalchik
"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit."
What the actual fuck....and yesterday a 14 year old killed an 80 year old man.....due to my recent medical situation i have to use a stick to walk (not that i can go far) but the sudden realisation of how vunerable i now am is scary...
(((((weepiper))))
(((((weepiper))))
mentalchik
"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit."
this in spades
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
The Late Lianne Gordon was the unintended victim of a dispute between two gangs when she was was shot dead in front of her daughter as she sheltered behind the front door of her home in Hackney, east London, on 5 December 2023, jurors at the Old Bailey were told earlier today:
(Source: as stated in image)
Mum Lianne Gordon shot dead through door in Hackney
(Source: as stated in image)
Mum Lianne Gordon shot dead through door in Hackney
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
That was just down the road from me, possibly a racist attack.
This is a thread about male violence against women. We have/are a problem. The violence comes from us.
However from my limited experience many of the statements like the one highlighted seem as common among women as men. I hear more negativity about women being promiscuous from other women especially older ones than from men. This probably can't be generalised or prove what attitudes actually are it may just be that males have learned to keep their mouths shut. I do think this is an issue when lads are at a certain age. They hear this from women and it hardly goes against the prevailing bullshit. I guess it's how the patriarchy influences everyone and is perpetuated. I agree with you but I don't think it can simply be put down to only male inadequacy.
May Kasahara
take me to the feeling
WTF has any of that got to do with what I posted?
Male violence stems from male inadequacy. When men choose to act on their negative feelings towards women with physical or emotional violence. We can unpick the causes and dynamics of those feelings, and it is in society's interests to do so, but male violence is men choosing to act. They can also choose not to. More men should make better choices.
Male violence stems from male inadequacy. When men choose to act on their negative feelings towards women with physical or emotional violence. We can unpick the causes and dynamics of those feelings, and it is in society's interests to do so, but male violence is men choosing to act. They can also choose not to. More men should make better choices.
Sorry if irrelevant.
It's women's fault really.
That's not my point at all. Hence being very clear that men are the problem.It's women's fault really.
I won't derail the thread any further. I've just been thinking a lot about my own experiences and where certain attitudes I may have held at various times could have come from. Not the place for it. My bad.
LakieLady
Well-Known Member
Margaret Atwood was right: men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.
Some men hate and kill women because they are afraid of being laughed at.
story
Changing the facts
This very much IS the place for it. Your posts are not a derail.
You've demonstrated one of the stumbling blocks. Backing away and tucking your tail in isn't helpful.
Painful humiliating excoriating exposing self reflection is essential. Do it here on the board, or at home, with mates, with a counsellor, inside your head; but don't retreat from it.
If we are to have any hope if unravelling this issue we all need to be aware of all the aspects, including the confusion and tangled up thinking men have.
No doubt you made your post in good faith "It's not just men who are perpetuating the problem". That's true. Women are also conditioned to uphold the patriarchy. You got a like for it from another man, one who is thoughtful about tricky issues.
But you've made a classic error of once again not seeing the picture from the woman's perspective.
The central issue here is the outcome of patriarchal conditioning: men feel entitled to obliterate women and children. For women, everything else is less urgent now.
Women have tried a billion different ways to tackle the problem, including a lot of self blame. That's not worked. Things are not better, and may be worse.
Unless and until men work to understand why men feel able to go to such extremes, women and girls will be in danger.
Women will trash talk other women etc. That's in part because they themselves are trying to stay safe (by demonstrating they're on men's side, by putting another woman ahead of them in the firing line, whatever...). Why etc is a conversation for women to have amongst themselves.
But it's not the most pressing issue. While men are physically destroying women, that's the primary issue.
There must be a ceasefire before any peace talks can commence.
While men are killing both women & girls and other men, men have to stop attempting to prioritise other ways to chip away at the patriarchy.
This was actually part of a defense at a trial for rape and coercive control I attended last year. She laughed at him because of something embarrassing about his body several years before it all happened. IIRC this was supposed to show that she was an awful person who would make it all up.
story
Changing the facts
The fact that you came up with any kind of reasoning suggests that you've been thinking it through and that's great.
But men need to go further than "I had an idea! Maybe this will make women see that I'm not part of the problem! I understand it better! Go me!"
Even men who do have a lot of insight and understanding can never fully know the existential truth women live with of walking about knowing that their father, lover, brother, son, as well as the male random stranger is statistically likely to attack them, their sister, mother, daughters and also their menfolk too.
Men must accept the horror of this. Really try to imagine it as a daily and nightly truth. Not an abstract notion.
Then try to say "it's the media, other women, video games... that's the problem, we have to deal with that ..."
Sure, okay. That's not wrong. But none of that will work until men pull back from the chaotic bloody killing fields.
Ceasefire.
How will men stop other men from killing women?
But men need to go further than "I had an idea! Maybe this will make women see that I'm not part of the problem! I understand it better! Go me!"
Even men who do have a lot of insight and understanding can never fully know the existential truth women live with of walking about knowing that their father, lover, brother, son, as well as the male random stranger is statistically likely to attack them, their sister, mother, daughters and also their menfolk too.
Men must accept the horror of this. Really try to imagine it as a daily and nightly truth. Not an abstract notion.
Then try to say "it's the media, other women, video games... that's the problem, we have to deal with that ..."
Sure, okay. That's not wrong. But none of that will work until men pull back from the chaotic bloody killing fields.
Ceasefire.
How will men stop other men from killing women?
Thank you.
I'm not retreating from it but I know there is an issue of men hijacking these threads to warble on about themselves so I was trying to avoid that. I will carry on in my head.
I understand what you are saying about urgency and agree about the central issue. I guess I feel completely helpless in regards to that. That is probably why I start looking elsewhere and longer term. IIRC many on this thread seem to think it will take generations to sort. How do we get to that ceasefire?
I did consider that women maybe trying to avoid being the victim of violence. I nearly put it in my post where I put something about some men learning to keep their mouth's shut. I didn't though as there are some cases where it seems pretty likely that that is not the case including times I have been reflecting on. I remember as a kid hearing this stuff unchallenged being the only male in the room (6 or 7 I guess and older but probably start seeming like more of a man then). There was at least some religious influence.
You're right about the primary issue. I can think of things I have done that may have helped. Having a word (not a euphemism) with someone who was being a knob, keeping an eye on people I know are problematic/ have had allegations against them but really stuck what to do beyond sticking plaster stuff. Collectively what do we do?
Thanks. Been trying to make the best of my life since then, and living it MY way.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I agree with this, but it is tough and painful to contemplate. Which is not (of course) a reason not to contemplate it, rather a reason TO not just contemplate, but act.
LakieLady said upthread "Margaret Atwood was right: men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.". I'd go a step further and say that men are also afraid that if they break ranks, other men will laugh at them. Part of the ceasefire you describe needs to be a step whereby men ARE prepared to break ranks with those who mistreat women, and call it out there and then. Until that can happen, men's behaviour will be an impenetrable wall whereby the worse of us are tolerated by the rest, because doing otherwise feels...uncomfortable.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Yeah, because that plays into stereotypical male roles, so "if he touches her, I'll smash his face in" feels more acceptable than "I'm calling him out for making inappropriate comments that make women uncomfortable, or worse".
And requires less thought.
ETA: and I am as guilty of that "protector" urge (and plenty of other patriarchally-conditioned behaviour) as anyone. It takes a pretty constant stand-back-and-have-a-squint-at-yerself process to catch it happening. It's hard work, and I can see why plenty of men find good (for them) reasons to externalise it all.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Do they?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
IME, yes, they do. Some of the creepier men I have known were very quick to resort to what they saw as their traditional roles (eg, of protector), almost as a justification for their creepy behaviour.
As an aside, I recall one such creepy bloke responding to my response to his attempt to justify his behaviour by accusing me of being "pussy whipped" (a deeply unpleasant expression). In other words, I was less of a man for attempting to present an alternative perspective.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I was questioning the absence of a qualifier. Surely, it should be "some men" or even "most men", rather than "men"?
I agree that many men do see themselves of being "protectors" of women.
story
Changing the facts
I was round a mate’s place late the other night. Another man arrived in a right state. I’ve seen him around but I don’t know him.
He’d had a drink, he was ranting about his sister being at risk of a beating from her bloke. He launched into a rant about how his dad had battered his mum and sisters, and now his sister was getting battered by her partner and he wasn’t going to let that happen. He was going round the next day to kick seven shades out of the bloke. He also said he’d just come from there.
It turned out that he’d been asked to leave by his sister, because he’d shouted at the daughter to get back into her room while he had a go at her stepfather. So his way of protecting his sister was get drunk and barge into her house while they were watching telly, command that she leave him, threaten to beat him, and then when the daughter tried to intervene also shouted at the daughter and ordered her to her room.
Everyone was just letting him rant. He was standing up, spit flecked, swaying, on a roll. Absolutely zero chance of getting him down to ground level.
When he finally paused to draw breath a women who was also there said “You’ve added to the violence with your behaviour. You’re part of the problem”. So he revved up into self righteous self defence and repeating his rant about the blame and how he was going to go over there and show him etc.. So he was now shouting at the woman and pointing at her and even took a step towards her. She stood up and moved away, turned her back. Looked like she was gasping for breath.
Then he was escorted outside and talked down and I could hear his voice had moved to a whine rather than a full-on shout. The woman made ready to leave but before she he came back in and tried to apologise to her. He was close to tears with a lot of “honest to god, honest to god” and inviting her to shake his hand, let him hug her. She was polite and kept saying “it’s okay” and shook his hand but avoided the hug.
When she left I really thought there might be some discussion about what had happened in the room and I did try to steer the conversation in that direction but it kept going back to this bloke’s aggrieved sense of justice about his sister and how he was going over there the next day to beat up the partner. I left soon after.
Saw him in the pub the other night. He had a cut over his eye. He apologised for his outburst. I didn’t ask him about any details or outcomes and I didn’t volunteer anything that might have started a new conversation.
That makes me part of the problem too: a perfect opportunity to raise the issue and attempt to tackle it in some way. But on the evidence of his behaviour it seemed pointless, and I don’t really know him, and he’d clearly had a drink or two, and other reasons too.
So here he is walking around in the world unchallenged and perpetuating the problem. No doubt he feels deep shame of many sources. How the fuck do any of us deal with people like him? I don’t know.
His sister and niece are still in the frontline of family violence, and he’s part of the problem.
He’d had a drink, he was ranting about his sister being at risk of a beating from her bloke. He launched into a rant about how his dad had battered his mum and sisters, and now his sister was getting battered by her partner and he wasn’t going to let that happen. He was going round the next day to kick seven shades out of the bloke. He also said he’d just come from there.
It turned out that he’d been asked to leave by his sister, because he’d shouted at the daughter to get back into her room while he had a go at her stepfather. So his way of protecting his sister was get drunk and barge into her house while they were watching telly, command that she leave him, threaten to beat him, and then when the daughter tried to intervene also shouted at the daughter and ordered her to her room.
Everyone was just letting him rant. He was standing up, spit flecked, swaying, on a roll. Absolutely zero chance of getting him down to ground level.
When he finally paused to draw breath a women who was also there said “You’ve added to the violence with your behaviour. You’re part of the problem”. So he revved up into self righteous self defence and repeating his rant about the blame and how he was going to go over there and show him etc.. So he was now shouting at the woman and pointing at her and even took a step towards her. She stood up and moved away, turned her back. Looked like she was gasping for breath.
Then he was escorted outside and talked down and I could hear his voice had moved to a whine rather than a full-on shout. The woman made ready to leave but before she he came back in and tried to apologise to her. He was close to tears with a lot of “honest to god, honest to god” and inviting her to shake his hand, let him hug her. She was polite and kept saying “it’s okay” and shook his hand but avoided the hug.
When she left I really thought there might be some discussion about what had happened in the room and I did try to steer the conversation in that direction but it kept going back to this bloke’s aggrieved sense of justice about his sister and how he was going over there the next day to beat up the partner. I left soon after.
Saw him in the pub the other night. He had a cut over his eye. He apologised for his outburst. I didn’t ask him about any details or outcomes and I didn’t volunteer anything that might have started a new conversation.
That makes me part of the problem too: a perfect opportunity to raise the issue and attempt to tackle it in some way. But on the evidence of his behaviour it seemed pointless, and I don’t really know him, and he’d clearly had a drink or two, and other reasons too.
So here he is walking around in the world unchallenged and perpetuating the problem. No doubt he feels deep shame of many sources. How the fuck do any of us deal with people like him? I don’t know.
His sister and niece are still in the frontline of family violence, and he’s part of the problem.
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story
Changing the facts
One of my mates who says he identifies as a protector is huge and looks like a Viking. He is kind, gentle, soft spoken, he works hard, supports his wife emotionally. He’s essentially a decent bloke. He’s old fashioned, salt of the earth type. Not all protectors are berserkers.
The one time I questioned him about being a Protector I came away shifting from “that’s part of the problem” to “I understand and support your position” . He spoke in simple terms and he’s not a natural with the intellect and the reasoned argument but the gist was “while the bullshit continues my duty as a protector continues”.
The one time I questioned him about being a Protector I came away shifting from “that’s part of the problem” to “I understand and support your position” . He spoke in simple terms and he’s not a natural with the intellect and the reasoned argument but the gist was “while the bullshit continues my duty as a protector continues”.
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