London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square

[Louloubelle]

Yes, I'm sure you can.

How is it relevant?

Because I am 100% sure you don't really mean that the general rule boys should absorb is "no means no, but only if she's being reasonable about it."

I know lots of them have, in fact, absorbed this message. And that is my point in using this example. Do boys ever get made to think about this, without being drowned out with 'jokey'banter and moaning about women cadging drinks and dressing like sluts? Or does it always derail direct to insulting stereotypes?

This post made me think about how difficult it is for people to actually think clearly about this sensitive issue.

It seems to me that often people cannot handle the complexity and the fuzziness of the edges, the fact that it is complex, and instead attempt to retreat into a world of certainty and black and white where no ambiguity exists. In this concrete world everything is split into good and bad, black and while, victim and perpetrator. You have to be on one side or the other.

While there are obviously many cases where their are clearly allocated roles of victim and perpetrator, there is some space for thinking about the cases where things are less clear cut. However even starting to think about and question such scenarios can cause great anxiety and a wish to stop thinking and retreat to a perceived safer place of splits and concrete certainties.

The fact that we only have Reclaim the Night (dungarees and wimmin) and slutwalk (sex workers and "sluts") each with their own respective protest movements says something about the difficulties in engaging with complex and sensitive issues relating to gender, abuse and personal responsibility. IMO

 

[teahead]

Ah sorry, didn't see you there, Teahead. Are you a bird too?

wtf? Are you wondering if I'm a 'bird' because of... Well what are you basing that assumption on?

 

[Spymaster]

What, don't tell me you're a bird?

I'll be whatever you like, Truxta. I like a bit of Scandi!

 

[teahead]

Sorry Spy. I didn't cotton the .
What's Truxta on about?

 

[ymu]

I'm being attacked by multiple people, and every single one of you goes off in a huff as if it's only you making the point I object to.

For fuck's sake!

I just want to know where the clear unambiguous dividing line is for people deciding how to act in the heat of the moment. Nothing else. How does thecdebatecabout the undoubted problems give a clear message to people about what is, and is not, acceptable?

Do we have to guess?

 

[TruXta]

I subconsciouly had Spy down as a bloke. Fuck knows why - stupid defaulting on gender-neutral poster names I guess.

 

[ymu]

He is a bloke. Just not much of a man.

 

[TruXta]

I'm being attacked by multiple people, and every single one of you goes off in a huff as if it's only you making the point I object to.

For fuck's sake!

I just want to know where the clear unambiguous dividing line is for people deciding how to act in the heat of the moment. Nothing else. How does thecdebatecabout the undoubted problems give a clear message to people about what is, and is not, acceptable?

Do we have to guess?

I can't see where you've been attacked in the last few pages ymu, honestly. Like lbj said honest disagreement is not having a go. That clear line you're asking for doesn't exist in any kind of abstract sense, and certainly cannot be codified or enshrined in law. That's okay, all/most laws are poor like that.

 

[Spymaster]

I subconsciouly had Spy down as a bloke.

A lot of people seem to. Perhaps I should change to Spymistress?

 

[teahead]

Do we have to guess?

It's hard or practically impossible to know what's going on in someone else's mind.

So no.

You either have to speak out and say what's happening during sex if you need to (and make judgements based on how they respond), or if it feels unsafe then look after youself until you reckon you're safer, then take any necessary action.

 

[quimcunx]

Who are the people attacking you?



Spy is a bloke.



good post, louloubelle.

 

[TruXta]

By the way, I finally got that post of yours I wasn't sure about, ymu. How is it relevant? It's relevant in all those scenarios that don't fit your binaries.

 

[ymu]

Well if that's the case I'm against the consensus. My impression is that several people here believe its critical to remain aware of a sexual partner's communications throughout the interaction of sexual activity.

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion about the consensus. Would a poll D) be useful? Seriously though, I'm against that consensus if it's there.

Well, the only other viewpoint being expressed is that refusing to withdraw is not rape. If you don't agree, speak up. I'm addressing the people who have commented. I want to know what the fuck they're on.

 

[Louloubelle]

ymu

You just seem to want a definitive rule that will be applicable in any one of a number of diverse scenarios.

The fact is that, much as though it would be lovely to have 100% certainty about all possibly permutations of sexual experience; people are individuals, context is everything and there is no one rule that applies rigidly to all scenarios.

Sometimes you just have to struggle with thinking about something rather than proclaiming that you know The Truth with absolute certainty.

 

[TruXta]

A lot of people seem to. Perhaps I should change to Spymistress?

Whatever floats your boat, Spy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm being attacked by multiple people,

There is a difference between attacking and disagreeing. You don't appear to be seeing that difference at the moment.

 

[Spymaster]

He is a bloke. Just not much of a man.

What is it with you?

Are you not going to settle down until you've started a fight with everyone on the boards?

 

[phildwyer]

I subconsciouly had Spy down as a bloke. Fuck knows why - stupid defaulting on gender-neutral poster names I guess.

"Spymaster" is not a gender-neutral name, fool.

 

[TruXta]

Well, the only other viewpoint being expressed is that refusing to withdraw is not rape. If you don't agree, speak up. I'm addressing the people who have commented. I want to know what the fuck they're on.

OK, so how many seconds between request and compliance before it's rape?

 

[past caring]

I'm being attacked by multiple people, and every single one of you goes off in a huff as if it's only you making the point I object to.

For fuck's sake!

I just want to know where the clear unambiguous dividing line is for people deciding how to act in the heat of the moment. Nothing else. How does thecdebatecabout the undoubted problems give a clear message to people about what is, and is not, acceptable?

Do we have to guess?

Perhaps people would be more ready to engage/would stick around longer if you didn't keep making shit up?

So, the urban consensus is apparently that it is not necessary to withdraw when asked to.

 

[claphamboy]

So, the urban consensus is apparently that it is not necessary to withdraw when asked to.

Just how the fuck have you come up with that conclusion?

You seem to have turned this whole thread into a 'you against everyone else' job, despite only 2 or 3 other posters making vile & totally unacceptable comments towards you.

I've still not read the whole thread, but what I have so far, it seems you have jumped on almost everyone posting, totally misreading what the majority have posted, it's almost like you are responding to a totally different thread on a different site, most odd.

 

[TruXta]

Fuck off dwyer. Seriously, not the time and place.

 

[Louloubelle]

. You seem to know all about it Louloubelle, perhaps you could explain when no stops meaning no?

My point is that I don't know it all and neither do you or anyone else.

Some situations are very clear to all, some are more complex

 

[Spymaster]

"Spymaster" is not a gender-neutral name, fool.

English is not Truxta's first language, to be fair.

She's Norwegian. I've been trying to get her to post on the naked thread.

 

[ymu]

Who are the people attacking you?

.

On this point? Several people are claiming that refusing to withdraw is not rape, and they're giving wildly different reasons.

From memory, spanky, louloubelle, TruxTa, revol, past caring, lbj.

I justvwant to know when no really means no, cos I xan't see this grey area being anything but abused. And dangerously confusing for some people too.

 

[phildwyer]

English is not Truxta's first language, to be fair.

I know. He's illiterate in seven languages.

 

[claphamboy]

He is a bloke. Just not much of a man.

 

[quimcunx]

On this point? Several people are claiming that refusing to withdraw is not rape, and they're giving wildly different reasons.

From memory, spanky, louloubelle, TruxTa, revol, past caring, lbj.

I justvwant to know when no really means no, cos I xan't see this grey area being anything but abused. And dangerously confusing for some people too.

lbj isn't, loulou isn't, truxta isn't.

 

[TruXta]

English is not Truxta's first language, to be fair.

She's Norwegian. I've been trying to get her to post on the naked thread.

I have posted on the nekkid thread! Keep up, babes! FWIW plenty of previously masculine titles are now gender-neutral. Or do you lot say aviatrix and directrix?

 

[teahead]

If you don't agree, speak up.

I think I have been! It seems so difficult to get your trust ymu. Several people seem, to me anyway, to be trying really hard to do this here. You certainly seem very passionate in your need to be heard on this. I'm absolutely respecting that, but I'm feeling that I've sort of run out of useful words. Which makes me feel a bit glum. Louloubelle seems to be on the money at the moment... But then is that looking like an attack to you?