Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Only if you haven't got some paint to watch dry. Louloubelle and LBJ are the only ones making any sense really.
Ymu's being weird and others are berating her for it.
Standard U75 50 pager. It'll run out of steam soon.
London SlutWalk - now *11th*June, 1pm Trafalgar Square
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Only if you haven't got some paint to watch dry. Louloubelle and LBJ are the only ones making any sense really.
Ymu's being weird and others are berating her for it.
Standard U75 50 pager. It'll run out of steam soon.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
He was a lot more scared of pregnancy than I was, primarily because I knew there was no chance cos I hadn't had a period in years (turns out it was sleep deprivation, they came back once I quit 9-5 work). And yes, he was making increasingly urgent noises. And I didn't get off cos I was a selfish little shit who had not at that point, considered what rape actually is.
The fact that we coukd laugh about it is irrelevant. I'm not looking for exoneration. I'm quite alarmed that people are actually arguing that there's some point at which it is too late to withdraw consent. If they really believe it, that is a big problem. Particularly if they think they can draw their own line without consulting the other person.
claphamboy
The wheels on the bus go round and round....
*considers position*
*yep, plenty of beer in, pissing down outside, fuck all else on this afternoon, I may give it a go*
You should have put that in spoiler tags.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
claphamboy
The wheels on the bus go round and round....
Oi you cheeky fucker spy, I've made total sense and been very reserved in the bunfight
I think I should be the judge of that.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oi you cheeky fucker spy, I've made total sense and been very reserved in the bunfight
You always make sense darling, certainly more than most birds.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
TruXta
tired
Ok so I've read it and most of it is eminently sensible. However it does breezily dismiss just the issues I raised about consent not always being a straigthforward yes or no.
And that is ascertained how exactly? Again in most cases it's likely to be pretty obvious, but what about those cases where it's not?
This all adds up to me saying that I agree with the main point, but that point is made at the expense of a more realistic assesment of what consent is and how it is communicated, processed and acted on. Is that an acceptable trade-off in the interest of clarifying what rape is and isn't? Possibly.
And then? Nothing.
And that is ascertained how exactly? Again in most cases it's likely to be pretty obvious, but what about those cases where it's not?
This all adds up to me saying that I agree with the main point, but that point is made at the expense of a more realistic assesment of what consent is and how it is communicated, processed and acted on. Is that an acceptable trade-off in the interest of clarifying what rape is and isn't? Possibly.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Don't know where that Edie quote is from, but naive? We fucked coitus interruptus the entire time we were together, and I was the only one who ever let us down. Once. Please quit the nasty assumptions about the men in my life. I see no need to denigrate him when I did wrong.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
No one ever said rape was easy to prosecute, TruxTa. I'm still on personal responsibility here.
And this is precisely why it needs discussion. Cos I'm saying that if someone tells you to get off them, you just do it. Others seem to be saying there's wriggle room. Which I think is worrying. Who is getting to define when no means no, here? How far into the act does consent become binding, and for how long? How is that acceptable in any way?
And this is precisely why it needs discussion. Cos I'm saying that if someone tells you to get off them, you just do it. Others seem to be saying there's wriggle room. Which I think is worrying. Who is getting to define when no means no, here? How far into the act does consent become binding, and for how long? How is that acceptable in any way?
TruXta
tired
For me consent is never binding. Anyone is free to withdraw consent at any time, and the other(s) involved must respect that. BUT, that assumes that consent has been clearly withdrawn. How clear must clear be? Say I have sex with someone. Say this someone consents to sex before the act, and does not withdraw consent during the act. Then consider that this someone on reflection didn't want to consent to sex with me, and in hindsight feels that s/he consented under duress. Then what? I could construct a million scenarios like this.
Ditto Spy, yer bunfighterOi you cheeky fucker spy, I've made total sense and been very reserved in the bunfight
Exactly. Which is why the crime of intent is the specific issue. And often so hard to prove. It's a dark area for the law to be in. I'm glad I work on the Health side.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ymu, I find your demeanour on this thread a bit strange. It's like you're getting some kind of titillation out of graphically describing your sex acts and your repeated insistence that you raped this fellow (you didn't). I began with some sympathy for your position but i'm not so sure now.
To be honest I think you may be trolling now, in which case, good show!
To be honest I think you may be trolling now, in which case, good show!
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
Indeed. This discussion reminds me of the recent news report about an Arab man who was jailed for rape in Israel when he pretended that he was Jewish in order to seduce a Jewish woman. She found out he was not Jewish and he was then tried and imprisoned for rape.
In ymu's case the issue relates to reproductive control and family planning. How about a scenario where a woman wants a baby and thus sticks pins through the bf's condoms or "forgets" to take the pill? Is the woman in that situation guilty of rape? I don't think so. She may be guilty of a pretty serious and nasty deception, but not rape.
How about a case where a man wants a baby and his wife / gf does not? He secretly sticks pins through his condoms. Is he guilty of rape? How about if the issue is protection from STIs and the sex takes place with the agreement that a condom is used but he sneakily removes it. is that rape?
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Yes, I'm sure you can.
How is it relevant?
Because I am 100% sure you don't really mean that the general rule boys should absorb is "no means no, but only if she's being reasonable about it."
I know lots of them have, in fact, absorbed this message. And that is my point in using this example. Do boys ever get made to think about this, without being drowned out with 'jokey'banter and moaning about women cadging drinks and dressing like sluts? Or does it always derail direct to insulting stereotypes?
Gromit
International Man of Misery
I propose that 'Safe words' (as used by the kinky community) should be made compulsory for all sexual encounters. Failure to proceed to intercourse before agreement of phrase to be punishable by fine and or imprisonment.
Who wants to lead the 'Ymu's law' campaign? This tragedy must never happen again. Won't someone think of the children?
TruXta
tired
Fuck off Gromit, you've had your hate-fest, let the grownups get on with it.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
Okay but when are they arriving?
TruXta
tired
They're already here. Seriously, leave it fucking be unless you've got something of substance to offer.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
So, the urban consensus is apparently that it is not necessary to withdraw when asked to.
Can we have more detail now please? Cos I need to know what I'm consenting to, and I know this bloke who just loved to batter my cervix and he'd have been delighted to know he need not have stopped when I told him to.
Permissible circumstances for rape:
- I'm nearly cumming
- don't think she really means it
- don't think she's being reasonable
??
Come on, some of you must have a full list. You seem to know all about it Louloubelle, perhaps you could explain when no stops meaning no?
Can we have more detail now please? Cos I need to know what I'm consenting to, and I know this bloke who just loved to batter my cervix and he'd have been delighted to know he need not have stopped when I told him to.
Permissible circumstances for rape:
- I'm nearly cumming
- don't think she really means it
- don't think she's being reasonable
??
Come on, some of you must have a full list. You seem to know all about it Louloubelle, perhaps you could explain when no stops meaning no?
TruXta
tired
I really hope you're not including me in this so-called urban consensus. And you've yet to address any of the points I raised about the murkiness of the consent concept and how it might work in practice.
I think I'll bow out of this thread, and with all due respect ymu (really, not being sarcy) - how about you take a break from this, cast your mind to more pleasant things for a while and then see if there's still anything you'd like to discuss?
Well if that's the case I'm against the consensus. My impression is that several people here believe its critical to remain aware of a sexual partner's communications throughout the interaction of sexual activity.
I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion about the consensus. Would a poll
D) be useful? Seriously though, I'm against that consensus if it's there.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ditto Spy, yer bunfighter
Ah sorry, didn't see you there, Teahead. Are you a bird too?
TruXta
tired
Ah sorry, didn't see you there, Teahead. Are you a bird too?
What, don't tell me you're a bird?
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