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Libertarian and Liberal

Good points darios

what shows up the 'arsehole' left here is their stupid label games where they try and insist you have one view when you have another or that certain people aren't allowed to use certain terms that they have monopolies over.

The Libertarian party of the Uk is certainly "right liberatarian".Twats like BA<VP<NS cannot accept that there are people who believe in the market but who also believe in free migration.It's why they should always be on ignore.
 
freedom for labour to migrate cannot square with freedom of capital to migrate. Except for low paid work, the sort kept artificially underpaid by importing labour. Using the ignore button to avoid opposing voices is lunacy. Argue your ideas. To ignore dissent and refuse to engage in a defence of your position looks like a cowards trick imo
 
freedom for labour to migrate cannot square with freedom of capital to migrate.

I agree DC. It's one of the fundamental tragedies of our world that capital can move faster than humans ever could. It's why I think the destruction of monopolies, and the processes that allow them to form, is so important.

On the converse side of this though DC, a notion of complete freedom for labour, capital and goods simply cannot square with any kind of nation state. No borders = no state.
 
Good points darios

what shows up the 'arsehole' left here is their stupid label games where they try and insist you have one view when you have another or that certain people aren't allowed to use certain terms that they have monopolies over.

The Libertarian party of the Uk is certainly "right liberatarian".Twats like BA<VP<NS cannot accept that there are people who believe in the market but who also believe in free migration.It's why they should always be on ignore.

Who forms the "arsehole left"?

You're not here to discuss or debate anything and that has become even clearer by the contents of your last paragraph.
 
I agree DC. It's one of the fundamental tragedies of our world that capital can move faster than humans ever could. It's why I think the destruction of monopolies, and the processes that allow them to form, is so important.

On the converse side of this though DC, a notion of complete freedom for labour, capital and goods simply cannot square with any kind of nation state. No borders = no state.
Why is the pre-eminence of your own arbitrarily defined nation state worth worrying about to a true libertarian? Libertarianism in its purest sense doesn't even hold to the idea of a nation state, let alone put that state's competitive position at the forefront of its policy ideas.
 
Why is the pre-eminence of your own arbitrarily defined nation state worth worrying about to a true libertarian? Libertarianism in its purest sense doesn't even hold to the idea of a nation state, let alone put that state's competitive position at the forefront of its policy ideas.

quite

ultimately the nation state should wither away .It only need exist while authoritarian states threaten it.
 
freedom for labour to migrate cannot square with freedom of capital to migrate. Except for low paid work, the sort kept artificially underpaid by importing labour. Using the ignore button to avoid opposing voices is lunacy. Argue your ideas. To ignore dissent and refuse to engage in a defence of your position looks like a cowards trick imo

maybe -some people only want to abuse me and I'm really too old to get engaged with flame wars . Ill do debate -I won't deal with an 'in 'crowd of bullies.
 
. Ill do debate -I won't deal with an 'in 'crowd of bullies.

But you don't "do" debate. In fact, you're as guilty of bullying as those you have accused. The simple truth is you don't know what you're talking about. You have also adopted some rather contradictory positions but seem to be too much in love with your own self-image to recognise this. In other words, everyone else is wrong but you; therefore you put anyone on ignore who dares to take some of your truly ridiculous notions apart.
 
Al, debate is about accepting that some people will disagree with you, sometimes heatedly, maybe because they feel very strongly about the issues concerned. But if you have a coherent position and know what you're talking about, then you should be able to stand your ground.

I'm a freedom of speech fundamentalist; I think everyone has the right to say what they think. However, if what they say deserves criticism, then they shouldn't be surprised if I exercise my freedom of speech and criticise it.

There are plenty of threads on here where people have thrown the dummy out of the pram because they were annoyed when people disagreed with them; have a root around, you'll see what I mean.
 
Good points darios

what shows up the 'arsehole' left here is their stupid label games where they try and insist you have one view when you have another or that certain people aren't allowed to use certain terms that they have monopolies over.
Except that what you have done is to take a phrase and totally dispose of it's original meanings in favour of your own.
It's not about "the arsehole left" insisting on anything, it's about you petulantly attempting to have your own way.
The Libertarian party of the Uk is certainly "right liberatarian".Twats like BA<VP<NS cannot accept that there are people who believe in the market but who also believe in free migration.It's why they should always be on ignore.
Actually, you wondrously intelligent product of the public school system, most of the people you name are absolutely certain that supporters of the free market would like some form of the free movement of labour. It's a way of propagating the economic system you favour.

Not that you'll be able to read this, like. You don't like having your beliefs challenged, do you? :)
 
How many has he shoved on ignore now then? I think he's left with gmarthews. Deal!

You, me, Nino and Fridge that I know of. Apparently we're an "in-crowd of bullies". :)

Conversely, of course, it could just be that Al is thin-skinned and can't bear to have his beliefs challenged.
 
You see, i just don't get the point of joining a board, searching for all the posts that contain the word libertarian, replying to them, then putting everyone on ignore who doesn't agree with you. If all you want is agreement then you're better off on one of the many Libertarian boards. If you want disagreement and debate then fine, but don't whack everyone on ignore. How do you opeerrate politically in the real world with this approach?
 
You see, i just don't get the point of joining a board, searching for all the posts that contain the word libertarian, replying to them, then putting everyone on ignore who doesn't agree with you. If all you want is agreement then you're better off on one of the many Libertarian boards. If you want disagreement and debate then fine, but don't whack everyone on ignore. How do you opeerrate politically in the real world with this approach?

What makes you think that he wants to "operate politically in the real world"? :)
 
My own position is irrelevant

On the contrary it is critically relevant. If you're criticising a political party on these grounds then you are obliged to answer the following:

i) Do you believe in an open-borders philosophy? If so, how could you possibly achieve this politically (worldwide revolution notwithstanding) and consistently with *any* notion of a nation state?
ii) if you don't believe in an open-borders philosophy, then it behooves you to explain why.

The fact remains that if you are theoretically for the free movement of goods, capital and people,

Every political party of every stripe is theoretically "for" (or "against") many things that cannot be realised immediately. Every such party has to work within the restraints already operating on it's environment (in this case, the electoral system, and powers and privileges granted to people at its various levels plus the realpolitik implications of being in the nation-state known as the U.K.), it can then gradually remove those restraints, and/or realise it's ideological aims. As this applies to all political parties, I take it you won't vote for any of them as they can't be instant idealists?

dumping the "people" aspect for whatever reason, making no particular moves towards it

Uhm...

LPUK said:
As a party we are committed to establishing the free movement of goods, capital and people. However, the free movement of people into the UK is not yet practical while we have both a large welfare state and most other countries are themselves not broadly Libertarian in nature.

As soon as it is practical to establish free movement between individual countries we will do so.

and in fact encouraging a _harsher_ attitude to movement of certain people (asylum seekers, here) means you are not terribly convincing as being ideologically consistent, and instead appear to be aping current authoritarian points.

Not ideologically consistent? Really? Asylum seekers != economic migrants. You're using a cheap shot there because of the prevailing attitude of largesse given over to asylum seekers by leftists on this board.

Similarly for lots of other parts; insisting on a strong military
capable of "projecting force" across the globe, for instance, doesn't say to me "the state should only be engaging in military action for the explicit purposes of self-defence",

I'm more sympathetic to this point. I'm not keen on the "projecting force" idea either. However, we're talking realpolitik here and there are a number of factors you appear to be ignoring. You're also (purposefully?) missing the context this was written in (others reading this - read for yourself here instead of going by the off the wrist misrepresentations given here on Urban by "critics").

The UK still has a number of far flung territories that would require protection, plus the *next* point in the manifesto is that armed forces would be needed to "protect supply lines and commercial shipping and fisheries from piracy". This requires some kind of "force projection" whether you like it or not. Perhaps the country's commercial (and civilian) interests on the high seas and in far flung territories could be protected by simple goodwill eh?

There's also the fact that while the U.K. doesn't present an appealing target for invasion on account of it having little of value, if it makes substantive moves towards a miniarchist society, in a world of corporatist entities, we're going to have to face the very likely prospect of attack. This is a really important facet that seems to be perpetually overlooked in left wing radical circles (with the exception of state socialists specifically seeking a strong state, which is likely to have a strong military as a corollary).

And then there's the complexities involved in still having to deal with the postures of the U.S. and the E.U. (Assuming by that point they haven't become largely hostile anyway).

it says "we are mimicking traditional tough-on-defence policies that exist in current right-wing parties and using 'pre-emptive defence' as an excuse" (something which US libertarians are generally not at all keen on, actually, or at least the serious ones).

Where on earth in the Manifesto does it talk about "pre-emptive defence"? You just made that up. And it is perfectly clear that the LPUK intends to follow the non-interventionist philosophy of the US Libertarians. The manifesto also makes clear that energy independence is a major goal.
 
Why is the pre-eminence of your own arbitrarily defined nation state worth worrying about to a true libertarian? Libertarianism in its purest sense doesn't even hold to the idea of a nation state, let alone put that state's competitive position at the forefront of its policy ideas.

Huh? Kabbes - you frequently make the point that you're not willing to subscribe to a political philosophy that has no roadmap or path to where it wants to go and now you're excoriating a political organisation for not being idealistic enough?
 
Who forms the "arsehole left"?

You're not here to discuss or debate anything and that has become even clearer by the contents of your last paragraph.

To be fair to Al Kahul, s/he identified him/her self as being to the left of the an-cap / market anarchists and right-libertarians / mini-archists. S/he identified with agorist and mutualist anarchists. Therefore s/he is correct to say that it is a 'left' position relative to the right-libertarians.

Look at Blagsta's response to this - he's either ignorant of these other anarchist / libertarian philosophies (which is pretty rich considering his repeated charges of disbelief that I've read any anarchist literature), or he is aware of what they're about and is just being an arse. Either way it's not good is it? And it neatly highlights the bunker mentality and simplistic anarchist ghetto that some of the regular posters appear to sit in. I thought Blagsta might be all over the likes of SEK3, but he's not. Why?
 
You're the one that keeps insisting that free market libertarianism is a form of anarchism, then failing to reply to posts which challenge you in that! I have consistently pointed out why it isn't and the historical distortions that you lot make to try and shoehorn your beliefs into anarchist history, and you fail to respond.

You also have a frankly quite bizarre delusion that you can make common ground with socialists. When I point out that the sticking point is a fairly obvious one concerning notions of private property, you again fail to respond.
 
Huh? Kabbes - you frequently make the point that you're not willing to subscribe to a political philosophy that has no roadmap or path to where it wants to go and now you're excoriating a political organisation for not being idealistic enough?
But I think that there is a roadmap to get to a no borders situation and it doesn't begin with strengthening those borders.
 
You're the one that keeps insisting that free market libertarianism is a form of anarchism,

No. Free market based libertarianism - using the american sense of libertarianism - is a form of miniarchism.

I argue that anarcho-capitalism / market anarchism is a form of anarchism. As are agorist and mutualist approaches.

What makes it critically important to consider both threads is that I think the only realistic path to some kind of anarchism is over a very long time scale, and only via miniarchism first. And because of that, it's the miniarchist philosophies that deserve the most attention and scrutiny. We can worry about the anarchism when we're somewhat closer to the prospect of actually having it.

then failing to reply to posts which challenge you in that! I have consistently pointed out why it isn't and the historical distortions that you lot make to try and shoehorn your beliefs into anarchist history, and you fail to respond.

Pfft. Last time you did a good job of making cheap shots and then carrying out a volte face on property. You failed to answer the several people who challenged you, not just me.

You also have a frankly quite bizarre delusion that you can make common ground with socialists.

LOL. OMG. Quote me please! It's absolutely, clearly the left-anarchists who seek out middle ground with state socialists. I have, and always will, consider state socialists, however well meaning, to be fundamental ideological opponents, if not outright enemies.

When I point out that the sticking point is a fairly obvious one concerning notions of private property, you again fail to respond.

Again, it's you that has the problem with private property. You've been challenged on this yourself - again, not just by me - and failed.
 
But I think that there is a roadmap to get to a no borders situation and it doesn't begin with strengthening those borders.

That's a fair point. However, you really think strengthening borders is really the thrust of the points made in the LPUK manifesto, or is it more a case of seeking to address the possibility that elements of immigration policy could be given up to the EU and to ensure that it is the U.K. government that dictates policy for its own borders in this regard?
 
Frankly, the tone of the manifesto and underlying message worry me more than the specifics. The impression I get of the whole is one of actually a rather right-wing protectionism.

As a roadmap -- I don't think that fundamental libertarian ideals are going to be achieved with a brand new party at all, actually. Libertarianism or anarchism generally is too big a step, as you have already identified. I don't think that diluting the ideas and the fundamental concepts to become electable -- which is what any party would have to do -- is going to help pursuade a population that those fundamental concepts are sound. Instead, I think you have to start by taking a "small government" philosophy into the existing structures and decision making. You have to pursuade people to think with the mindset of "allow it all unless we have to ban it" rather than "ban it all unless we allow you to do it". This can be achieved right now.

Sometimes, I know what a libertarian approach is when I see it, too. And I know what it isn't. It certainly isn't a government making hundreds and hundreds of new laws, establishing an identity database and issuing ID cards, which is what this government is doing, admittedly. But I'm not sure that it is writing a manifesto that has a section on strengthening national defence and national borders either.
 
No. Free market based libertarianism - using the american sense of libertarianism - is a form of miniarchism.

I argue that anarcho-capitalism / market anarchism is a form of anarchism. As are agorist and mutualist approaches.

Yes, you do, but you have to distort the history to do so.

What makes it critically important to consider both threads is that I think the only realistic path to some kind of anarchism is over a very long time scale, and only via miniarchism first. And because of that, it's the miniarchist philosophies that deserve the most attention and scrutiny. We can worry about the anarchism when we're somewhat closer to the prospect of actually having it.

Your definition of anarchism is not the same as mine though. Your defintion involves production and ownership being in private hands for private profit. That is capitalism, not anarchism. Anarchism is about producing for social need.

Pfft. Last time you did a good job of making cheap shots and then carrying out a volte face on property. You failed to answer the several people who challenged you, not just me.

This is just a complete lie.

LOL. OMG. Quote me please! It's absolutely, clearly the left-anarchists who seek out middle ground with state socialists. I have, and always will, consider state socialists, however well meaning, to be fundamental ideological opponents, if not outright enemies.

You made some comments recently about approaching anarchists in Sheffield.
btw, I consider free market capitalists/libertarians to be enemies

Again, it's you that has the problem with private property. You've been challenged on this yourself - again, not just by me - and failed.


Again, another lie. I just reviewed the thread in question ("Why have the left failed to convince the majority?" if anyone is interested). You distorted, misrepresented, lied and then disappeared. Par for the course for you when anyone challenges you. Lie, run away or put them on ignore.
 
I argue that anarcho-capitalism / market anarchism is a form of anarchism. As are agorist and mutualist approaches.

Sorry, I can't accept that; it's a little like saying that Nazism/fascism and socialism are the same or even similar.
 
Frankly, the tone of the manifesto and underlying message worry me more than the specifics. The impression I get of the whole is one of actually a rather right-wing protectionism.
....[snip]
But I'm not sure that it is writing a manifesto that has a section on strengthening national defence and national borders either.

Interesting that is the impression you guys are getting from the manifesto - certainly not the intention.


Instead, I think you have to start by taking a "small government" philosophy into the existing structures and decision making. You have to pursuade people to think with the mindset of "allow it all unless we have to ban it" rather than "ban it all unless we allow you to do it". This can be achieved right now.

You think this can happen without people expressly going in with Libertarian thinking as the ticket? Good luck to you. We've already seen what happened to Gavin Webb.....
 
On the contrary it is critically relevant. If you're criticising a political party on these grounds then you are obliged to answer the following:
This may be the internet but actually I don't want to talk about myself, amazing as that may sound. It's not relevant because I am not saying "the UKLP's immigration policy is bad" (I may think it bad but that's not the point) I am saying "the policy that they promote is incompatible with the philosophy they claim, at least without some really extreme rationalisation".

kabbes has said quite a lot of this already but if somebody is claiming to be no-borders and is putting forward policies that are pro-borders - and in this case, ones directly addressing the bogeyman of "asylum seekers" - when there are things they could be doing, I'm inclined to suspect that they don't actually mean the former. People in NL still claim to be socialist after all, the BNP claim not to be racist, etc etc.

Where on earth in the Manifesto does it talk about "pre-emptive defence"?

"Pre-emptive defence" isn't a quote from them, it's the justification that has recently been claimed for engaging in aggressive military action by right-wing parties.
 
Yes, you do, but you have to distort the history to do so.

If you say so. The right-libertarians can trace their roots quite clearly through the mutualist thinking ushered in by the likes of Tucker in the U.S. combined with the individualists such as Stirner. But there you go. You weren't even familiar with the mutualist, agorist, geo strains were you, and have an incredibly heavy reliance on Marx so I don't hold out much hope for having a sensible discussion with you on this.

Your definition of anarchism is not the same as mine though. Your defintion involves production and ownership being in private hands for private profit. That is capitalism, not anarchism. Anarchism is about producing for social need.

Oh noes. Well you're not going to define us all out of existence. Or perhaps you could make a claim for Intellectual Property Rights hahahahahaha :D. So it's tough shit for you really. Interestingly the right-libertarian understandings of "anarchism" accomodate and allow for left-libertarian understandings but - as you've made abundantly clear, the converse isn't true.


Darios said:
Pfft. Last time you did a good job of making cheap shots and then carrying out a volte face on property. You failed to answer the several people who challenged you, not just me.

This is just a complete lie.

Kyser's observations here, just get a lame slogan "anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron". Great answer kid.

Alright's post here gets a "whoosh". Oh the intellectual cut and thrust.

Your response to Kyser here indicates ignorance regarding what I pointed about above, that the right-libertarian "anarchism" contains your - privileged - socialised definition of anarchism (and thus contains left-libertarian "anarchy"). If anything the "shoe-horning" goes the other way and my posts here are more of an olive branch (like so many others offered in the past by right-libertarians to the left) that you chaps consistently snub. So be it.

You completely fail to deal with Weltweit's objections which begin here. And you suddenly revise your notion of property and claim that was what you meant 'all along'. It looks like what actually happened is that when it was pointed out that even someone like Proudhon had a nominal notion of property you panicked and backtracked. And the distinction made, as I pointed out, and as Weltweit tried to draw out is clearly a slippery slope.

I also make it abundantly clear on that thread where you're throwing in the cheap shots.

Now where *I* failed on that thread was answering VPs last few points (apologies VP). You and I simply came to an impasse. VP made much better points as it appears s/he understands the right-libertarian argument and responds accordingly.

You made some comments recently about approaching anarchists in Sheffield.

Made of fail Blagsta. First you accuse me of seeking succour with Socialists, I ask you to quote me, then you come out with that vagueness above - this time about anarchists. Confused?

btw, I consider free market capitalists/libertarians to be enemies

Have it your way. We have more in common than you'd ever admit and it's a real shame that you can't see that. The differences, ultimately come down to micro-economics - at least in the case of anarchism.

p.s. we're shaking in our boots.

Darios said:
Again, it's you that has the problem with private property. You've been challenged on this yourself - again, not just by me - and failed.

Again, another lie. I just reviewed the thread in question ("Why have the left failed to convince the majority?" if anyone is interested). You distorted, misrepresented, lied and then disappeared. Par for the course for you when anyone challenges you. Lie, run away or put them on ignore.

Wow I'm getting the full service Urban smear treatment here. Getting desperate? You're definitely making Al-Kahoul's case for him/her. For the record, so far it's only one person on ignore - and that was after his drunken posturing antics last week that permanently put me off of interacting with him.
 
Sorry, I can't accept that; it's a little like saying that Nazism/fascism and socialism are the same or even similar.

You are (by implication) bemoaning the fact that some people like to align / smear Socialism with National Socialism and effectively go ahead and make the same smear towards us. Great work NS.
 
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