Supine
Newt Member
IMO everyone would be better off if the USA stayed the fuck out of the Middle East entirely.
American "Liberals" Are Dangerous Dimwits
- Thread starter Pinkie_Flamingo
- Start date
IMO everyone would be better off if the USA stayed the fuck out of the Middle East entirely.
bimble
floofy
I refused to go for about a decade (during which time i had family there, they've now run away to America, because they could). I think the use of the word apartheid is apt. You just have to look at the huge fucking wall, the checkpoints, the armed soldiers on every corner in east jerusalem, the way in which killings of palestinians are 'investigated', the two tier education system, the fact that there are villages all over which simply do not appear on the map because they are the wrong villages etc etc. I met people this time who helped me understand what the restrictions on movement actually mean, in real life, people for instance who can't risk going to see their family in the west bank lest they have their permission to stay in Jerusalem revoked overnight and lose their homes and become 'stateless'. Apartheid works fine as a word for what's going on but when people go straight for 'genocide' is when the alarm bells ring.
newbie
undisambiguated
we get fairly regular visits by racists &/or banned returners using (predictable) dogwhistles to try to disrupt our famously balanced debates and disrupt our polite understated British reserve.
IME there are differences in the understanding and appreciation of class in our two nations divided by common(ish) language. But like you I appreciate the discussions of others. What board did you come from, I'd like to have a look?
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Let’s start with “ethnic cleansing”. Although this is a relatively recent phrase, the early leaders of the Zionist project were quite clear that this is what they wanted to do, without using the modern phrase. They saw the indigenous people not just as inconvenient, but as ethnic “enemies”. That is they were considered enemies because they were from other ethnic communities. Indeed, they even used the term “cleanse”:
According to Benny Morris, recently declassified documents in the archives of the IDF reveal that in 1947, Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders concluded that a Jewish state could not come into being in the territory assigned to Jews by the UN
without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians…. In the months of April–May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.
This resulted in “far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought,” including “many cases of rape [that] ended in murder” and executions of Palestinians who were lined up against a wall and shot (in Operation Hiram).
The dismantling of Palestinian society, the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages, and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians were not unavoidable consequences of the war declared on the emerging Jewish state by Arab countries. Rather, as Morris repeatedly confirms, it was a deliberate and planned operation intended to “cleanse” (the term used in the declassified documents) those parts of Palestine assigned to the Jews as a necessary pre-condition for the emergence of a Jewish state.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2004/02/26/israel-the-threat-from-within/
There is detailed evidence over and over for attitudes like this from the Zionist movement, and repeated evidence over and over for it having taken place. And this is the 1948 period alone, not that which took before or after. And these were not refugees “fleeing a war”. Indeed, an estimated 50% of the total expulsions of that period took place before the “Arab-Israeli” war began.
Ilan Pappe has detailed evidence for the approximately 1 million people expelled from their homes at gunpoint, and hundreds of Palestinian villages destroyed. This is irrefutable evidence of planned ethnic cleansing. (Though, of course, people who don’t like the evidence prefer to discount as much of it as they feel they can get away with, saying, for example, the numbers were lower, or there were fewer forced expulsions than claimed, fewer killings than claimed, and so on. All of which should spark at least some recognition).
And then we have the 1967 annexations.
Following the 1967 war, when the remaining 22 percent of Arab Palestine came under Israeli occupation, the UN adopted resolutions 242 and 338, which affirmed the obligation of Arab countries to recognize Israel’s legitimacy and its right to live in security, but also insisted on the inadmissibility of Israel’s acquisition of territory in the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the 1967 war.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2004/02/26/israel-the-threat-from-within/
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2004/02/26/israel-the-threat-from-within/
Note, the UN resolutions, far from being blindly anti-Semitic and anti-Israel, “affirmed the obligation of Arab countries to recognize Israel’s legitimacy and its right to live in security”. So, we have to conclude that the only reason for rejecting the resolutions is that the Israeli state wants to continue to act outside of international law.
This is without looking at the post-1967 period, the wall, Gaza, "punitive" home demolishing, collective punishment, and so on. But I invite anyone to look at the facts on the ground (and if one doesn’t like non-Israeli human rights organisations, try Israeli organisations: Publications ) and compare them with the definition of genocide in international law:
Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part1 ; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
http://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf
http://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf
Are the Israeli state’s actions “genocide”? More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants think so. Holocaust survivors and their descendants accuse Israel of
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
"Fifty years after the Israeli seizure of the West Bank during the six-day war in 1967, the physical signs of occupation have become an embedded and dominating part of the landscape.
For Palestinians – whether they live in Jerusalem’s Old City, the south Hebron Hills, or further north in Nablus or the Jordan valley – daily life is hemmed in by Jewish settlements.
The Israeli separation wall looms over the terrain, and at checkpoints along Route 60 security forces man terminals and guard the bus stops at the main junctions.
These images, captured in the weeks leading up to the 50th anniversary of the occupation, show scenes from daily life for Palestinians in the West Bank, marked by segregation and control."
A day in the life of the West Bank occupation
For Palestinians – whether they live in Jerusalem’s Old City, the south Hebron Hills, or further north in Nablus or the Jordan valley – daily life is hemmed in by Jewish settlements.
The Israeli separation wall looms over the terrain, and at checkpoints along Route 60 security forces man terminals and guard the bus stops at the main junctions.
These images, captured in the weeks leading up to the 50th anniversary of the occupation, show scenes from daily life for Palestinians in the West Bank, marked by segregation and control."
A day in the life of the West Bank occupation
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Are you serious? Blacks routinely died in the shadow of white hospitals. Their private property rights were regularly violated. The government did nothing to assure justice when whites harmed, even killed blacks.
The registration by race, the families forced apart, the "whites only" stores, the government forces oppressing, even killing protesters, including children....
I do not know how anyone can say these hideous conditions exist today in Israel.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
What is the better, less-restrictive measure that Israel can use which will preserve human life?
The two state solution has been tried, and it was Arab terrorists who could not respect it. Not a month went by before they used their greater freedom of movement to kill Israelis.
The argument that there is anything Israel could do that would satisfy the Arab terrorists is utterly dishonest. They will never accept Israel's right to exist.
The only path to peace is to remove these men and support new, moderate Arab leaders. Israel cannot make peace with violent extremists who want every Jew in Israel killed.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
If this is where you get all your news, no wonder you loathe Israel.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Almost certainly, although ideally, Russia would likewise withdraw.
The source of all the hostility there is the careless exercise of imperial power, and the purchase of oil from Arab leaders who do nothing whatever for their own citizens.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Did you likewise feel that the British imposed "apartheid" on Ireland, before the Good Friday agreement?
What happened in South Africa was so much more than checkpoints.
As for "two tier education", which Arab nation's citizens have a better literacy rate than Israeli Arabs? Where else are people able to become lawyers, judges, politicians, etc. If they were born poor?
Where else do you find roads, in the Arab nations, serving the poor? Where else is there an Arabian middle class?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It seems you're being deliberately evasive. DLR hasn't denied that blacks are treated poorly, he's presented you with evidence of the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state.
What's wrong with the sources he's cited?
Normally, apologists for the Israeli states actions are given pretty short shrift around here. You are fortunate to have been engaged by one of our more thoughtful and less pugnacious members. At least do him the courtesy of reading and responding to what he's actually posted.
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Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Why are there separate buses? Because if not, Israeli Arabs kill Israeli Jews.
Then Arab terrorists pay the families of suicide bombers "tribute", from foreign aid received from the U.S.
It's not moral or human to demand that Israeli Jews volunteer to be murdered, without complaint.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
O, I have not been placed on ignore yet. Lucky me.
The right of Israel to exist is not debatable among people who I regard as moral. The fact that Israel will exist is not debatable among people who I regard as realistic.
Neither group includes any Arab terrorists or their sympathizers.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Are there military actions available to Israel which would harm no Arab children? Is that ever an option when the terrorists hide behind children, in schools or hospitals?
How many Israeli Jewish children have been killed by Arab terrorists?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
So you have just come here to post what you want to post, not to debate. That's boring.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
You clearly have no idea what's going on in Israel. Unsurprising, since you'll accept no evidence from human rights NGOs or the UN alike.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
I was thinking something similar. I never intended to debate Israel's right to exist. The effort depresses me. I intended to discuss how Americans once badly damaged British and Irish people, due to their carelessness.
IOW, this is not the convo I hoped to have. How our two nations interact, what's good, what's bad.
I think I will ponder awhile on what to do, because holding a mock trial over every Israeli interaction with any Arab is not a useful or helpful exercise, IMO.
Maybe you guys just cannot make room for the POVs of people who do not live in the UK. Or maybe my language choices are too poor to convey ideas to people with a different style of speech.
Whatever the case, this thread now is certainly not yielding anything in the way of greater understanding for either of us.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Well, you've made two allegations there, neither of which is justified by anything I've posted.
I'll take them in this order: 1. that I loath Israel. I have not anywhere said I loath Israel. I'm quite clear that what I loath is the actions of the Israeli state that are in contravention of international law and which violate human rights. If you read back what I've said you'll see that:
"I have no problem with migration; it’s part of the human condition. I completely understand the desire of European Jews during the period from the end of the 19th Century to seek a resolution of the so-called Jewish Problem by establishing settlements in what was then Palestine. So far, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is forced expulsions of indigenous populations. I have a problem with that wherever and whenever it occurs."
Source.
I further highlighted UN resolutions 242 and 338, which affirmed the obligation of Arab countries to recognize Israel’s legitimacy and its right to live in security. Source.
Furthermore, several of those links are Jewish and Israeli organisations. Like the famously anti-Semitic Rabbis For Human Rights.
2. That this is where I get all my news.
It isn't. I simply offered some resources for people who may wish to further their reading.
Here's a tip: if you want a discourse: look at what your interlocutor is saying. Don't just ignore what they say while you await your turn.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Agreed.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Quite. I had hopes that this would result in some decent debate. Turns out that Pinkie doesn't want anything of the sort.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
"On" all of Ireland? It would only apply to the so-called Northern Ireland, where the circumstances had many similarities to Apartheid South Africa.
What has happened and is happening in Israel/Palestine is so very much more than checkpoints.
Good god, this is like excuses for slavery! "We treated them well. Much better than in Africa".
I'm interested that you think there are no Arab nations with "roads serving the poor".
In every Arab country. But why you think that's a good thing, why you keep going on about it you haven't yet explained.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
You are correct. I have absolutely no interest in debating Israel's right to exist. To my ear, it's the same as debating whether the Holocaust actually happened.
What I cannot understand is how this revolting trope gained such popularity among liberals -- apparently in both our countries -- so fast, and to such a degree. Anyone in America questioning Israel's right to exist in public in the 1950's to 1970's would have been excluded from polite company and might have lost their job.
I revisit this issue after 9/11, only to find this matter of international relations has become the Mad Hatter's Tea Party, where the most violent, the most sexist, the most racist, the most evil men in the ME today are now HEROS to "my fellow liberals".
I am astounded by this discovery and frankly, it makes me afraid.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
You aren't. At least not with me.
You may have noticed that your POV is on these boards. There's plenty of room being allocated to it. You have every opportunity to express it. So far on this thread alone (which you started) you have posted 40 times. That's far in excess of what the next poster has posted (me).
This is something some people seem to have trouble with. I will and do defend your freedom to say what you want, but I do not guarantee that I will agree with what you say. And because I also have freedom of speech, I will air my point of view if I wish to, even though it may not concord with yours. That's how it works.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Where are you being required to so do?
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
I am assuming you would not ask, if this board had a TOS which prohibited the mention of competing websites. Relying on your better understanding of the rules, this is that American board where we all plotted to invade you here:
Political Hotwire
If you visit, Leo2 has the same nick there, but mine is different. I am Madeline. I would have used that nick here as well, but your system indicated it was already used.
We would be delighted to have any of you visit, however much you might like.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
The premise is that Israel has less right to do what is needed to protect its citizens than other nations have, because Israel's right to exist is not "as legitimate".
If Arab terrorists attacking the US are not killed during the attack, we imprison them without a trial, or we put them to death. Sometimes on US soil, sometime overseas. If American liberals held the US to the same standard of conduct they try to impose on Israel as to these terrorists, we would be recruiting them and throwing them a ticker tape parade before we lined up, like sheep, to be killed.
It is a completely unrealistic standard, and Israel should not be subjected to this sort of one-sided attack by liberals ANYWHERE in the West.
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