Those aren't the original sense.Thanks for that explanation - I don't use the term in that sense, or in any political sense - merely in the original sense of being generous of spirit, and accepting of opinions other than one's own.
Those aren't the original sense.
liberal - definition of liberal in English | Oxford Dictionaries1 Willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
‘liberal views towards divorce’
1.1 Favourable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms.
‘liberal citizenship laws’
1.2 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform.
‘a liberal democratic state’
1.3 Relating to Liberals or a Liberal Party, especially (in the UK) relating to the Liberal Democrat party.
‘the Liberal leader’
Well, that isn't a value-free definition.OK, allow me to amend that to - in the primary sense imparted by the Oxford English Dictionaries.
liberal - definition of liberal in English | Oxford Dictionaries
Well, I saw it's face, now I think that's a beaver. Without a trace of doubt in my mind.
I listen to the War Nerd podcast, and said nerd was a staunch noraid man, but probably more out of very deep personal issues than anything else.Maggie was so ignorant of Northern Ireland when she finally decided to deal with it her first suggestions were deport all the Catholics and build a Berlin wall style border complete with landmines. when civil servants persuaded her these really weren't solutions they eventually lead to the Anglo Irish agreement and the long long stagger to the peace process.
while Noraid did send some funds I bet a lot of the donations never left the states much like a lot of US charity's do little actual charity work and who are you going to complain to?
I gave money to support a terrorist organisation and it never reached said terrorists
Another book acquired, thank you.Those aren't the original sense.
“It began in a specific social distinction, to refer to a class of free men as distinct from others who were not free”
Excerpt From: Raymond, Williams. “Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and Society.” Oxford University Press.
Well, that isn't a value-free definition.
However, we've had this particular definition discussion several times on the boards. You might say we've had a liberal helping of these discussions. So let's agree that "being liberal" is not the same as being "a liberal". Because the question in the thread title is one worth discussing.
Well, I wasn't discussing it academically, I was discussing it politically: as a real life situation affecting people's lives; the distribution of power and resources.
It's true that the British state created problems here (as elsewhere), that it now has a responsibility to help to resolve. But events did not end in the 1920s, and it would be incredibly ethnocentric, not to mention racist, to imagine that there are no actors with agency in the world other than "the West". Stopping at the Balfour Letter and imagining that explains everything or is the whole story would be pretty insulting to people in the region. It also lacks historical rigour.
Nor do I think the Palestinians and Israelis (the terms are important) are "locked in a death match neither can escape". This ahistorical, context-free view suggests the whole thing is hopeless, and, further, that its a value-free, inexplicable and equal tit for tat. It is not: the aggression is overwhelmingly from the Israeli state.
I said I might recommend some books. The ones I'd begin with are:
Ilan Pappé, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.
Neve Gordon, Israel's Occupation.
Norman G. Finkelstein, Image and Reality of the Israel–Palestine Conflict.
All three are in my view important books. (Incidentally, the first two authors are Israelis, the last a Jewish American son of Holocaust survivors. So criticism that their - meticulously evidenced - work is ethnically biased against Israel has to contend with that fact).
The Israeli state is far worse than imperfect.
I think you need to step back from that notion. America supports the Israeli state and refuses to condemn its actions, but the Israeli state is responsible.
Not sure why you think a middle class is a prerequisite for anything. (Well, I think I have an inkling why, but I think you're wrong about it). Supporting women's struggles, working class empowerment, children's right, and so on should not be dependent upon anything.
You began talking about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but you're focussing entirely on Palestinian society. It's quite clear from that that you think the Palestinians are the aggressors, and you seem to be implying that this is due to some defect in Palestinian society. You have absolutely everything there back to front.
It's quite possible to be critical of other Middle East regimes at the same time as being critical of the Israeli state. For example, I despise Bashar al-Assad in Syria, and the "anti-Imperialists" who support him. I support the struggle for women's emancipation in misogynistic Islamic cultures, and despise the cultural relativist cowards who abandon them in the name of "anti-racism". And I support the struggle of the independent workers' organisations and activists in Iran, such as that of Jafar Azimzadeh.
All of this is possible while still condemning the actions of the Israeli state.
On the other hand, I do agree that liberals are dangerous dimwits.
It is not self-defence if you are the aggressor.Maybe so. I am not a person with any complaints about the self-defense tactics of the Israelis. It seems obvious to me, the peace process is not frustrated by Israel; it is frustrated by the West's willingness to buy oil and otherwise recognize the extremely repressive, anti-human governments and organizations of the Arab nations.
It is not self-defence if you are the aggressor.
Israel tells France it will not join talks aimed at reviving peace process
“Israel has formally notified France that it will not participate in a peace conference” (2016)
https://benabyad.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/un-escwa-israel-apartheid-report.pdf
“Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights, Human Rights Watch said today.
At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation: unlawful killings; forced displacement; abusive detention; the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement; and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians. “
Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses
Document
“Israeli forces unlawfully killed Palestinian civilians, including children, in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), and detained thousands of Palestinians from the OPT who opposed Israel’s continuing military occupation, holding hundreds in administrative detention. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees remained rife and was committed with impunity. The authorities continued to promote illegal settlements in the West Bank, including by attempting to retroactively “legalize” settlements built on private Palestinian land, and severely restricted Palestinians’ freedom of movement, closing some areas after attacks by Palestinians on Israelis. Israeli forces continued to blockade the Gaza Strip, 202 Amnesty International Report 2016/17 subjecting its population of 1.9 million to collective punishment, and to demolish homes of Palestinians in the West Bank and of Bedouin villagers in Israel’s Negev/Naqab region, forcibly evicting residents. The authorities imprisoned conscientious objectors to military service and detained and deported thousands of asylum-seekers from Africa. (PP201/202)
The authorities detained or continued to imprison thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding most of them in prisons in Israel, in violation of international law. Many prisoners’ families, particularly those in Gaza, were not permitted entry to Israel to visit their relatives in prison. The Israeli authorities Amnesty International Report 2016/17 203 continued to arrest hundreds of Palestinian children in the West Bank including East Jerusalem. Many were subjected to abuse by Israeli forces including beatings and threats. The authorities held hundreds of Palestinians, including children, under renewable administrative detention orders based on information that they withheld from the detainees and their lawyers. The numbers held under such orders since October 2015 were the highest since 2007; more than 694 were held at the end of April 2016 (the last month for which reliable data was available). Some detainees undertook lengthy protest hunger strikes; Palestinian detainee Bilal Kayed remained on hunger strike for 71 days. He was released without charge in December.
Israeli soldiers, police and Israel Security Agency (ISA) officers subjected Palestinian detainees, including children, to torture and other ill-treatment with impunity, particularly on arrest and during interrogation. Reported methods included beatings, slapping, painful shackling, sleep deprivation, use of stress positions and threats. Although complaints alleging torture by ISA officers have been handled by the Ministry of Justice since 2014, and more than 1,000 had been filed since 2001, no criminal investigations were opened. Complaints that the Israeli police used torture or other ill-treatment against asylum-seekers and members of the Ethiopian community in Israel were also common. The UN Committee against Torture conducted its fifth periodic review of Israel, criticizing continued reports of torture and other ill-treatment, impunity, and the authorities’ failure to proscribe torture as a crime under the law”
https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/UNCT_RPT241116.pdf
Torture, Israeli-style - as described by the interrogators themselves
Yeah right!In fact, the national modesty and self-deprecation she displays is, in my view, atypical of the average American who posts on political fora, and I commend her for it - here and elsewhere. She does not appear to be welded on to a particular political ideology, and I would think any discussion board would value that as a refreshing and intelligent attitude.
Two members join on the same day. When one is accused of trolling the other jumps to their defence. I don't think so.Fuck the UN; it is nothing but a mouthpiece for Arab extremists.
Well, you clearly wanted a ruck about this, and I’m not sure why I’m giving it to you, but OK, let’s take that on:Fuck the UN; it is nothing but a mouthpiece for Arab extremists.
There is nothing illegitimate in the land Israel acquired since 1948, anymore than there is about the land the US acquired since 1776. Ultimately, a nation's borders are those it can defend, and in this regard, Israel is no different from other nations that have expended since 1948, including China, Russia and the US. Eastern Europe has changed its national identities and borders more often than you've had hot dinners, and so have parts of Africa.
Israel does not oppress its Arab citizens. It imposes the restrictions on movement, etc. that are the least restrictive means by which it can preserve human life -- ALL human life, including Arab ones. Maintaining law and order inside its borders is a fundamental function of any nation, anywhere. The Israeli Arabs can improve matters by denouncing terrorism and supporting moderate leaders.
Meanwhile, Israeli Arabs have a far better standard of living, health, literacy rates, economic opportunities, etc. than the citizens of any other Arab nation (other than the ruling elite), which may be one reason so few pursue the obvious solution of moving out of Israel and into a Arab nation.
Israel no more "occupies" Israeli land than the US "occupies" American land. IDGAF what sentimental bullshit claims the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Arabs who once lived on Israeli land may make for their "homeland". It is not the place of, or the duty of, the international community to return any land to its "rightful owners" from a century (or several centuries) ago, and suggesting otherwise emboldens the Arab extremists whose only real goal is to drive the Jews out of Israel, preferably by killing them. The international community was on the side of God in efforts to end apartheid in South Africa, but is on the wrong side in any concerted effort to delegitimize Israel.
The West seems to think Israel is dependent on us for its survival. It is not, although the West certainly needs Israel to aid in their fight against Arab terrorism. Any Israeli loss of confidence in their alliance with the West, especially the US, will only create a fertile ground for China to court Israel, and that nation will act in its own best interest. Try to imagine how much LESS secure all of humanity would be, if China were to replace the US as Israel's favorite superpower.
The Jews will survive and Israel will continue to exist. Any ME peace plan must begin by accepting the truth of those geopolitical facts. Western "liberals" cannot continue to complain that Israel is deviating from the Geneva convention while at the same time, turning a blind eye to the most revolting, shocking, sickening terror tactics employed by Arabs against Israel. It is an artificial, anti-human, childish approach to the problem.
Arabs are of course entitled to be respected, to self-determine their own futures in Arab nations and to run their own nations as they see fit. BUT, the West is entitled to support, desire, demand and cajole these people until their massive wealth is shared with all their citizens and the human rights of all Arabs, male and female, are respected.
The new Western habit of Disneyfing Arab terrorism against Israel is a childish, false, and anti-human practice. You must recognize that you can only participate as a citizen of a western nation, and that you are demanding that Israel tolerate losses and risks that are 300xs what anyone living in the US or the UK faces, from virtually the same terror organizations.
There will be peace in the ME when the Arabian Nelson Mandela emerges and takes power, and not before. If you care so much about the well-being of these people, then use your voice to support the moderates among them.
What you are presently doing is the moral equivalent of sitting in the Colosseum, as the Romans release the lions to eat the Christians.
Oh dear, that’s quite a statement of extreme isolationism. Whatever criticisms you might have of the UN (and I have some), that view is so far from being even plausible that I suspect you’ve been imbibing some very dodgy websites.Fuck the UN; it is nothing but a mouthpiece for Arab extremists.
Here is where you run across your first problem. There was a great deal wrong with the way that settlers acquired land in the US since 1776. Especially the way it was acquired and what happened to the people who were there already: the Native Americans.There is nothing illegitimate in the land Israel acquired since 1948, anymore than there is about the land the US acquired since 1776
The Israeli state treats them as second class citizens without the rights that those it defines as Israeli citizens enjoy. Israeli Arabs stamp Facebook photos with ‘second–class citizen’Israel does not oppress its Arab citizens.
(I’ll leave aside for now the idea that I’m any kind of liberal, inverted commas or not). But I’m not turning any blind eye. I’m no supporter of Hamas. I’m constantly critical of Islamism, to the extent that people on this site have believed me “Islamophobic” or at least guilty of being blind to anti-Muslim racism. (Look through the Charlie Hebdo threads for example).Western "liberals" cannot continue to complain that Israel is deviating from the Geneva convention while at the same time, turning a blind eye to the most revolting, shocking, sickening terror tactics employed by Arabs against Israel. It is an artificial, anti-human, childish approach to the problem.
Yeah right!
Two members join on the same day. When one is accused of trolling the other jumps to their defence. I don't think so.
editor ?
I'm interested in what you mean by this, and how you think it's possible?provided we can avoid [...] inflexible class [...] alignment as well.
Yeah right!
Two members join on the same day. When one is accused of trolling the other jumps to their defence. I don't think so.
editor ?
I'm interested in what you mean by this, and how you think it's possible?
They condemn the Isreali state's pattern of behaviour because it's behaviour worthy of condemnation.Nope. Probably never will; I am not attracted to the climate.
As for the UN, I defy anyone to defend the Security Council's pattern of condemning everything Israel does, to the point that it is one long, biased, irrelevant screed.
Well, you clearly wanted a ruck about this, and I’m not sure why I’m giving it to you, but OK, let’s take that on:
Oh dear, that’s quite a statement of extreme isolationism. Whatever criticisms you might have of the UN (and I have some), that view is so far from being even plausible that I suspect you’ve been imbibing some very dodgy websites.
What about the human rights organisations I quoted? Amnesty and Human Rights Watch? Fuck them also? Even though they are also critical of Arab regimes, and some Palestinian organisations? Or only fuck them when they’re critical of something you imagine is beyond criticism?
What about Ha’aretz, the Israeli newspaper I linked to? Fuck them also? They’re an Arab extremist mouthpiece?
Here is where you run across your first problem. There was a great deal wrong with the way that settlers acquired land in the US since 1776. Especially the way it was acquired and what happened to the people who were there already: the Native Americans.
I have no problem with migration; it’s part of the human condition. I completely understand the desire of European Jews during the period from the end of the 19th Century to seek a resolution of the so-called Jewish Problem by establishing settlements in what was then Palestine. So far, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is forced expulsions of indigenous populations. I have a problem with that wherever and whenever it occurs.
Ben Gurion was quite explicit about what they would do: he wrote in 1937 “We must expel Arabs and take their places” (see Anton La Guardia, Holy Land, Unholy War, 2002, p188)
Jumping forward to 1948, what the Zionist movement (and I’m going to make a point about that term below) did to the indigenous population is basically what the Serb forces did in 1999. During that period about 80% of the indigenous population was expelled from what became the area of the State of Israel.
You can refer to Ilan Pappe’s book, the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. You can look at the photographs it reproduces of the villages cleared and destroyed. You can, if you like, follow the tradition of denying they existed, but the evidence is there. Those who deny that Palestine was inhabited and that its population was expelled are denying the evidence, they’re rewriting history, they’re taking the side of the subjugators over the subjugated.
This is not, incidentally, to pick a side and cheer for it, but to present the facts. And that is 1948. That’s before even we get to 1967, or to the treatment of the Palestinians thereafter.
I’m going to make it clear here that I agree with Norman Finkelstein: I don’t think it’s helpful to cast this argument as being “anti-Zionist” or “pro-Zionist” nor as being “pro-Israeli” or “pro-Palestinian”. The issue is whether you’re for a just settlement or an unjust settlement of the conflict. It’s an issue of justice.
The Israeli state treats them as second class citizens without the rights that those it defines as Israeli citizens enjoy. Israeli Arabs stamp Facebook photos with ‘second–class citizen’
(I’ll leave aside for now the idea that I’m any kind of liberal, inverted commas or not). But I’m not turning any blind eye. I’m no supporter of Hamas. I’m constantly critical of Islamism, to the extent that people on this site have believed me “Islamophobic” or at least guilty of being blind to anti-Muslim racism. (Look through the Charlie Hebdo threads for example).
But firstly, I have to point out that there is no equivalence. The desperate lashing out by Palestinian groups is the equivalent of kids throwing stones at tanks. It is often literally kids throwing stones at tanks. Compared to the crushing of a population over generations, the Palestinian strikes are miniscule. Indiscriminate attacks targeting civilians are wrong. Your accusation that I’m “turning a blind eye” is factually incorrect, as you’d know if you’d read the reports I’ve linked to. However, the might is overwhelmingly on the side of the Israeli state. The body count is hugely, overwhelmingly and disproportionately Palestinian civilians. Children, old people, women, sick people, disabled people, people trying to eke a living in the barren reservations they’re restricted to.
Which brings us to the second point: that you are doing something far worse than turning a blind eye on that: you’re condoning it. You’re saying it’s necessary, that it’s (to use your words) “preserving life”. That is the most sickening Orwellian doublespeak possible.
I don’t think you’ll bother reading the material I’ve recommended, because you don’t want to learn. But I hope that someone else reading this who wasn’t sure of the evidence might.
Despite the fact that I have done?but say nothing to the Arab terrorists?
They condemn the Isreali state's pattern of behaviour because it's behaviour worthy of condemnation.