Leo2
Vexatious correspondent
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, but personally, I thought it lacked sufficient development of the theme and characters, and there was literally no denouement. Perhaps not an F, but certainly no better than a C.
American "Liberals" Are Dangerous Dimwits
- Thread starter Pinkie_Flamingo
- Start date
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, but personally, I thought it lacked sufficient development of the theme and characters, and there was literally no denouement. Perhaps not an F, but certainly no better than a C.
Leo2
Vexatious correspondent
Thanks for that explanation - I don't use the term in that sense, or in any political sense - merely in the original sense of being generous of spirit, and accepting of opinions other than one's own.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Those aren't the original sense.Thanks for that explanation - I don't use the term in that sense, or in any political sense - merely in the original sense of being generous of spirit, and accepting of opinions other than one's own.
“It began in a specific social distinction, to refer to a class of free men as distinct from others who were not free”
Excerpt From: Raymond, Williams. “Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and Society.” Oxford University Press.
Leo2
Vexatious correspondent
OK, allow me to amend that to - in the primary sense imparted by the Oxford English Dictionaries.
liberal - definition of liberal in English | Oxford Dictionaries
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Well, that isn't a value-free definition.
However, we've had this particular definition discussion several times on the boards. You might say we've had a liberal helping of these discussions. So let's agree that "being liberal" is not the same as being "a liberal". Because the question in the thread title is one worth discussing.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Well, I saw it's face, now I think that's a beaver. Without a trace of doubt in my mind.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Maggie was so ignorant of Northern Ireland when she finally decided to deal with it her first suggestions were deport all the Catholics and build a Berlin wall style border complete with landmines
. when civil servants persuaded her these really weren't solutions they eventually lead to the Anglo Irish agreement and the long long stagger to the peace process.
while Noraid did send some funds I bet a lot of the donations never left the states much like a lot of US charity's do little actual charity work and who are you going to complain to?
I gave money to support a terrorist organisation and it never reached said terrorists
. when civil servants persuaded her these really weren't solutions they eventually lead to the Anglo Irish agreement and the long long stagger to the peace process.while Noraid did send some funds I bet a lot of the donations never left the states much like a lot of US charity's do little actual charity work and who are you going to complain to?
I gave money to support a terrorist organisation and it never reached said terrorists
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
I listen to the War Nerd podcast, and said nerd was a staunch noraid man, but probably more out of very deep personal issues than anything else.Maggie was so ignorant of Northern Ireland when she finally decided to deal with it her first suggestions were deport all the Catholics and build a Berlin wall style border complete with landmines
while Noraid did send some funds I bet a lot of the donations never left the states much like a lot of US charity's do little actual charity work and who are you going to complain to?
I gave money to support a terrorist organisation and it never reached said terrorists
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Another book acquired, thank you.
Leo2
Vexatious correspondent
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Maybe so. I am not a person with any complaints about the self-defense tactics of the Israelis. It seems obvious to me, the peace process is not frustrated by Israel; it is frustrated by the West's willingness to buy oil and otherwise recognize the extremely repressive, anti-human governments and organizations of the Arab nations.
Absolutely nothing Israel -- a legitimate nation -- has done to defend itself begins to compare with the Arab practice of OFFERING, and paying, enormous tributes to the families of suicide bombers who kill Israelis. Not soldiers, but civilians. Children on schoolbuses. Women and old people out shopping. Injured people awaiting transport to the hospital. Israel has never asked its little kids to wear bombs and wander into crowds, so their parents can remote-control the deaths of their own child and as many Israeli Jews as possible.
This horrifying conduct is not "Arabian"; it is not "Muslim". It is the product of unrestrained, undiluted male violence against a background of extreme violence. No Israeli lives matter to these leaders, and no Arab lives.
You say you cannot understand why the ME peace process requires the human rights of women and children be recognized? This is why. Why do the Arab nations need a middle class? Quite about from the obscenity of living like the leaders do, in sumptuous luxury, the extreme, subsistence level standard of living of other Arab citizens not only creates despair, but also leaves these nations without an educated, empowered base of citizens with a belief that they have some measure of control over their own futures.
With whom would Israel have made peace, as to "Palestine's" leaders, across the years? The PLO? From Israel's POV, WTF is the difference between Yassar Arafat and Osama bin Laden? What the Arabs needed and continue to need was/is their own Golda Meir. Their own Sinn Fein.
MODERATE Arab leaders invested in making peace by first acknowledging Israel's right to exist.
You cannot seriously expect the Israelis to volunteer to die, or depart the ME? What the hell sort of "solution" is that intended to be?
BTW, scientists expect most of the ME to be uninhabitable in another decade or so, due to global warming.
Global Warming Could Trigger a 'Climate Exodus' From The Middle East And North Africa
Of the estimated 1 billion climate refugees expected to occur by 2025, fully half are anticipated to be from North Africa and the ME.
There is a very real sense in which this conversation we are having is a quest to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
I was a liberal American, in my youth. I was only dangerous to the war-mongers, racists and misogynists who were in power in the US at that time.
These days, I am having more and more trouble finding common ground with young Americans who call themselves "liberals". Maybe that's the human condition, as most young people everywhere feel misunderstood by their elders. But I think it runs deeper. They seem to get their opinions in little 140-character long tweets from the liberal blogosphere, without any reflection or historical analysis.
It's worrisome.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
It is not self-defence if you are the aggressor.
Israel tells France it will not join talks aimed at reviving peace process
“Israel has formally notified France that it will not participate in a peace conference” (2016)
https://benabyad.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/un-escwa-israel-apartheid-report.pdf
“Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights, Human Rights Watch said today.
At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation: unlawful killings; forced displacement; abusive detention; the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement; and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians. “
Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses
Document
“Israeli forces unlawfully killed Palestinian civilians, including children, in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), and detained thousands of Palestinians from the OPT who opposed Israel’s continuing military occupation, holding hundreds in administrative detention. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees remained rife and was committed with impunity. The authorities continued to promote illegal settlements in the West Bank, including by attempting to retroactively “legalize” settlements built on private Palestinian land, and severely restricted Palestinians’ freedom of movement, closing some areas after attacks by Palestinians on Israelis. Israeli forces continued to blockade the Gaza Strip, 202 Amnesty International Report 2016/17 subjecting its population of 1.9 million to collective punishment, and to demolish homes of Palestinians in the West Bank and of Bedouin villagers in Israel’s Negev/Naqab region, forcibly evicting residents. The authorities imprisoned conscientious objectors to military service and detained and deported thousands of asylum-seekers from Africa. (PP201/202)
The authorities detained or continued to imprison thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding most of them in prisons in Israel, in violation of international law. Many prisoners’ families, particularly those in Gaza, were not permitted entry to Israel to visit their relatives in prison. The Israeli authorities Amnesty International Report 2016/17 203 continued to arrest hundreds of Palestinian children in the West Bank including East Jerusalem. Many were subjected to abuse by Israeli forces including beatings and threats. The authorities held hundreds of Palestinians, including children, under renewable administrative detention orders based on information that they withheld from the detainees and their lawyers. The numbers held under such orders since October 2015 were the highest since 2007; more than 694 were held at the end of April 2016 (the last month for which reliable data was available). Some detainees undertook lengthy protest hunger strikes; Palestinian detainee Bilal Kayed remained on hunger strike for 71 days. He was released without charge in December.
Israeli soldiers, police and Israel Security Agency (ISA) officers subjected Palestinian detainees, including children, to torture and other ill-treatment with impunity, particularly on arrest and during interrogation. Reported methods included beatings, slapping, painful shackling, sleep deprivation, use of stress positions and threats. Although complaints alleging torture by ISA officers have been handled by the Ministry of Justice since 2014, and more than 1,000 had been filed since 2001, no criminal investigations were opened. Complaints that the Israeli police used torture or other ill-treatment against asylum-seekers and members of the Ethiopian community in Israel were also common. The UN Committee against Torture conducted its fifth periodic review of Israel, criticizing continued reports of torture and other ill-treatment, impunity, and the authorities’ failure to proscribe torture as a crime under the law”
https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/UNCT_RPT241116.pdf
Torture, Israeli-style - as described by the interrogators themselves
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
It is not self-defence if you are the aggressor.
Israel tells France it will not join talks aimed at reviving peace process
“Israel has formally notified France that it will not participate in a peace conference” (2016)
https://benabyad.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/un-escwa-israel-apartheid-report.pdf
“Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights, Human Rights Watch said today.
At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation: unlawful killings; forced displacement; abusive detention; the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement; and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians. “
Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses
Document
“Israeli forces unlawfully killed Palestinian civilians, including children, in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), and detained thousands of Palestinians from the OPT who opposed Israel’s continuing military occupation, holding hundreds in administrative detention. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees remained rife and was committed with impunity. The authorities continued to promote illegal settlements in the West Bank, including by attempting to retroactively “legalize” settlements built on private Palestinian land, and severely restricted Palestinians’ freedom of movement, closing some areas after attacks by Palestinians on Israelis. Israeli forces continued to blockade the Gaza Strip, 202 Amnesty International Report 2016/17 subjecting its population of 1.9 million to collective punishment, and to demolish homes of Palestinians in the West Bank and of Bedouin villagers in Israel’s Negev/Naqab region, forcibly evicting residents. The authorities imprisoned conscientious objectors to military service and detained and deported thousands of asylum-seekers from Africa. (PP201/202)
The authorities detained or continued to imprison thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding most of them in prisons in Israel, in violation of international law. Many prisoners’ families, particularly those in Gaza, were not permitted entry to Israel to visit their relatives in prison. The Israeli authorities Amnesty International Report 2016/17 203 continued to arrest hundreds of Palestinian children in the West Bank including East Jerusalem. Many were subjected to abuse by Israeli forces including beatings and threats. The authorities held hundreds of Palestinians, including children, under renewable administrative detention orders based on information that they withheld from the detainees and their lawyers. The numbers held under such orders since October 2015 were the highest since 2007; more than 694 were held at the end of April 2016 (the last month for which reliable data was available). Some detainees undertook lengthy protest hunger strikes; Palestinian detainee Bilal Kayed remained on hunger strike for 71 days. He was released without charge in December.
Israeli soldiers, police and Israel Security Agency (ISA) officers subjected Palestinian detainees, including children, to torture and other ill-treatment with impunity, particularly on arrest and during interrogation. Reported methods included beatings, slapping, painful shackling, sleep deprivation, use of stress positions and threats. Although complaints alleging torture by ISA officers have been handled by the Ministry of Justice since 2014, and more than 1,000 had been filed since 2001, no criminal investigations were opened. Complaints that the Israeli police used torture or other ill-treatment against asylum-seekers and members of the Ethiopian community in Israel were also common. The UN Committee against Torture conducted its fifth periodic review of Israel, criticizing continued reports of torture and other ill-treatment, impunity, and the authorities’ failure to proscribe torture as a crime under the law”
https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/UNCT_RPT241116.pdf
Torture, Israeli-style - as described by the interrogators themselves
Fuck the UN; it is nothing but a mouthpiece for Arab extremists.
There is nothing illegitimate in the land Israel acquired since 1948, anymore than there is about the land the US acquired since 1776. Ultimately, a nation's borders are those it can defend, and in this regard, Israel is no different from other nations that have expended since 1948, including China, Russia and the US. Eastern Europe has changed its national identities and borders more often than you've had hot dinners, and so have parts of Africa.
Israel does not oppress its Arab citizens. It imposes the restrictions on movement, etc. that are the least restrictive means by which it can preserve human life -- ALL human life, including Arab ones. Maintaining law and order inside its borders is a fundamental function of any nation, anywhere. The Israeli Arabs can improve matters by denouncing terrorism and supporting moderate leaders.
Meanwhile, Israeli Arabs have a far better standard of living, health, literacy rates, economic opportunities, etc. than the citizens of any other Arab nation (other than the ruling elite), which may be one reason so few pursue the obvious solution of moving out of Israel and into a Arab nation.
Israel no more "occupies" Israeli land than the US "occupies" American land. IDGAF what sentimental bullshit claims the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Arabs who once lived on Israeli land may make for their "homeland". It is not the place of, or the duty of, the international community to return any land to its "rightful owners" from a century (or several centuries) ago, and suggesting otherwise emboldens the Arab extremists whose only real goal is to drive the Jews out of Israel, preferably by killing them. The international community was on the side of God in efforts to end apartheid in South Africa, but is on the wrong side in any concerted effort to delegitimize Israel.
The West seems to think Israel is dependent on us for its survival. It is not, although the West certainly needs Israel to aid in their fight against Arab terrorism. Any Israeli loss of confidence in their alliance with the West, especially the US, will only create a fertile ground for China to court Israel, and that nation will act in its own best interest. Try to imagine how much LESS secure all of humanity would be, if China were to replace the US as Israel's favorite superpower.
The Jews will survive and Israel will continue to exist. Any ME peace plan must begin by accepting the truth of those geopolitical facts. Western "liberals" cannot continue to complain that Israel is deviating from the Geneva convention while at the same time, turning a blind eye to the most revolting, shocking, sickening terror tactics employed by Arabs against Israel. It is an artificial, anti-human, childish approach to the problem.
Arabs are of course entitled to be respected, to self-determine their own futures in Arab nations and to run their own nations as they see fit. BUT, the West is entitled to support, desire, demand and cajole these people until their massive wealth is shared with all their citizens and the human rights of all Arabs, male and female, are respected.
The new Western habit of Disneyfing Arab terrorism against Israel is a childish, false, and anti-human practice. You must recognize that you can only participate as a citizen of a western nation, and that you are demanding that Israel tolerate losses and risks that are 300xs what anyone living in the US or the UK faces, from virtually the same terror organizations.
There will be peace in the ME when the Arabian Nelson Mandela emerges and takes power, and not before. If you care so much about the well-being of these people, then use your voice to support the moderates among them.
What you are presently doing is the moral equivalent of sitting in the Colosseum, as the Romans release the lions to eat the Christians.
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Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
In addition to the impact of climate change on the ME, the growth of "green" energy technologies and the rising energy independence of more Western nations will reduce Western imperialism in the ME in the foreseeable future.
Despite the harsh criticism I have for Arab terrorists, I do have great sympathy for their goal of removing their nations from the influence of the West (including Russia). The US has installed and propped up more evil fuckwhits as dictators in the ME (and then often removed them) with absolutely no care as to how those dictators treated their own citizens. US imperialist foreign policy since 1776 has been the biggest Misery Merchant the world has ever known, and continues to be.
If the oil in the ME lost its value, the US would have no further care and the region could probably resolve the conflict more quickly and humanely. You don't see the US giving conflict-ridden areas of Africa the kind of intense involvement that the ME gets, because the conflict-ridden areas of Africa have no natural resources or strategic value the US (or Russia, or China) covets.
We barely even care about Eastern Europe, and many Americans are the children of immigrants from those areas.
Absence and indifference might well be the best possible gift Americans could offer any citizen of the ME, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.
Despite the harsh criticism I have for Arab terrorists, I do have great sympathy for their goal of removing their nations from the influence of the West (including Russia). The US has installed and propped up more evil fuckwhits as dictators in the ME (and then often removed them) with absolutely no care as to how those dictators treated their own citizens. US imperialist foreign policy since 1776 has been the biggest Misery Merchant the world has ever known, and continues to be.
If the oil in the ME lost its value, the US would have no further care and the region could probably resolve the conflict more quickly and humanely. You don't see the US giving conflict-ridden areas of Africa the kind of intense involvement that the ME gets, because the conflict-ridden areas of Africa have no natural resources or strategic value the US (or Russia, or China) covets.
We barely even care about Eastern Europe, and many Americans are the children of immigrants from those areas.
Absence and indifference might well be the best possible gift Americans could offer any citizen of the ME, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.
bimble
floofy
i shouldn't touch this with a bargepole but am curious Pinkie_Flamingo have you been to Israel/ Palestine? It seems to me that your position as expressed in your post above is no more nuanced than that of those you're accusing of wilful childish ignorance. There's no hope at all whilst this simpleminded 'pick a side and cheer for it' continues.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
I can be more nuanced, but there are limits, just as there are limits to my ability to suss out the best possible resolution to conflicts in Ireland, or Eastern Europe, or Africa. I do not see my place as being one of judge, choosing which claimant should prevail and imploring my country to enforce that party's "rights". I see my role as that of an American citizen, whose nation has an appalling history -- and present practice -- of exploiting the citizens of every nation we try to bring into our "sphere of influence".
Today, the US is providing air support to Dutrete in the Philippines. A mass murderer, condemned by the Catholic Church and every human rights organization. We could care less about the fates of Filipinos. We only care that the Philippines are a valued strategic asset in the contest with China for dominance of the SE Asia region. The US creates tyranny and environmental horrors in Latin America, and is a force for chaos, war and human misery all over Africa.
Believe me, you do not want the US's politicians or Americans acting privately to commence to once again try to dictate what the UK and Ireland "should do", if the Troubles begin again. We will "settle" matters in the manner that is the least desirable for YOU, if we think it offers US some advantage. Even an advantage as ephemeral as "emotional gratification".
I think this national character defect of Americans is the product of some very sophisticated, intense, coordinated propagandizing by the 0.01%, but then I view those people as Actually Satantic.
There is something fundamentally different between you and I, as compared to a CEO at a company like Monsanto. You and I are both humans.
The Monsanto CEO seems like a different species to me. Fomenting warrior impulses so as to sell more weapons so appalling they have been forbidden since WW I.
That's a level of evil that I struggle even to imagine, but sadly have seen glimpses of, up close, during my career.
Today, the US is providing air support to Dutrete in the Philippines. A mass murderer, condemned by the Catholic Church and every human rights organization. We could care less about the fates of Filipinos. We only care that the Philippines are a valued strategic asset in the contest with China for dominance of the SE Asia region. The US creates tyranny and environmental horrors in Latin America, and is a force for chaos, war and human misery all over Africa.
Believe me, you do not want the US's politicians or Americans acting privately to commence to once again try to dictate what the UK and Ireland "should do", if the Troubles begin again. We will "settle" matters in the manner that is the least desirable for YOU, if we think it offers US some advantage. Even an advantage as ephemeral as "emotional gratification".
I think this national character defect of Americans is the product of some very sophisticated, intense, coordinated propagandizing by the 0.01%, but then I view those people as Actually Satantic.
There is something fundamentally different between you and I, as compared to a CEO at a company like Monsanto. You and I are both humans.
The Monsanto CEO seems like a different species to me. Fomenting warrior impulses so as to sell more weapons so appalling they have been forbidden since WW I.
That's a level of evil that I struggle even to imagine, but sadly have seen glimpses of, up close, during my career.
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Flavour
hang the bankers
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Well, you clearly wanted a ruck about this, and I’m not sure why I’m giving it to you, but OK, let’s take that on:
Oh dear, that’s quite a statement of extreme isolationism. Whatever criticisms you might have of the UN (and I have some), that view is so far from being even plausible that I suspect you’ve been imbibing some very dodgy websites.
What about the human rights organisations I quoted? Amnesty and Human Rights Watch? Fuck them also? Even though they are also critical of Arab regimes, and some Palestinian organisations? Or only fuck them when they’re critical of something you imagine is beyond criticism?
What about Ha’aretz, the Israeli newspaper I linked to? Fuck them also? They’re an Arab extremist mouthpiece?
Here is where you run across your first problem. There was a great deal wrong with the way that settlers acquired land in the US since 1776. Especially the way it was acquired and what happened to the people who were there already: the Native Americans.
I have no problem with migration; it’s part of the human condition. I completely understand the desire of European Jews during the period from the end of the 19th Century to seek a resolution of the so-called Jewish Problem by establishing settlements in what was then Palestine. So far, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is forced expulsions of indigenous populations. I have a problem with that wherever and whenever it occurs.
Ben Gurion was quite explicit about what they would do: he wrote in 1937 “We must expel Arabs and take their places” (see Anton La Guardia, Holy Land, Unholy War, 2002, p188)
Jumping forward to 1948, what the Zionist movement (and I’m going to make a point about that term below) did to the indigenous population is basically what the Serb forces did in 1999. During that period about 80% of the indigenous population was expelled from what became the area of the State of Israel.
You can refer to Ilan Pappe’s book, the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. You can look at the photographs it reproduces of the villages cleared and destroyed. You can, if you like, follow the tradition of denying they existed, but the evidence is there. Those who deny that Palestine was inhabited and that its population was expelled are denying the evidence, they’re rewriting history, they’re taking the side of the subjugators over the subjugated.
This is not, incidentally, to pick a side and cheer for it, but to present the facts. And that is 1948. That’s before even we get to 1967, or to the treatment of the Palestinians thereafter.
I’m going to make it clear here that I agree with Norman Finkelstein: I don’t think it’s helpful to cast this argument as being “anti-Zionist” or “pro-Zionist” nor as being “pro-Israeli” or “pro-Palestinian”. The issue is whether you’re for a just settlement or an unjust settlement of the conflict. It’s an issue of justice.
The Israeli state treats them as second class citizens without the rights that those it defines as Israeli citizens enjoy. Israeli Arabs stamp Facebook photos with ‘second–class citizen’
(I’ll leave aside for now the idea that I’m any kind of liberal, inverted commas or not). But I’m not turning any blind eye. I’m no supporter of Hamas. I’m constantly critical of Islamism, to the extent that people on this site have believed me “Islamophobic” or at least guilty of being blind to anti-Muslim racism. (Look through the Charlie Hebdo threads for example).
But firstly, I have to point out that there is no equivalence. The desperate lashing out by Palestinian groups is the equivalent of kids throwing stones at tanks. It is often literally kids throwing stones at tanks. Compared to the crushing of a population over generations, the Palestinian strikes are miniscule. Indiscriminate attacks targeting civilians are wrong. Your accusation that I’m “turning a blind eye” is factually incorrect, as you’d know if you’d read the reports I’ve linked to. However, the might is overwhelmingly on the side of the Israeli state. The body count is hugely, overwhelmingly and disproportionately Palestinian civilians. Children, old people, women, sick people, disabled people, people trying to eke a living in the barren reservations they’re restricted to.
Which brings us to the second point: that you are doing something far worse than turning a blind eye on that: you’re condoning it. You’re saying it’s necessary, that it’s (to use your words) “preserving life”. That is the most sickening Orwellian doublespeak possible.
I don’t think you’ll bother reading the material I’ve recommended, because you don’t want to learn. But I hope that someone else reading this who wasn’t sure of the evidence might.
Leo2
Vexatious correspondent
Lol, I can understand your reaction in the light of that comment, and I must say that, while I am sure she has good reason for that reaction, that is a side to the lady I have not heretofore witnessed.
I'm not entirely sure what it is you are implying, but I have already stated that I have known the lady, under another nom de plume, for quite a while. It follows that I have had some exposure to what I see as her habitual posting style, and I am of the opinion that it does not encompass trolling. Furthermore, had I not encountered the lady before, I would still have given the opinion that her opening post was not trolling of any variety.
Pinkie Flamingo asked at another place if there was a British forum with a fairly balanced membership, and another Brit recommended this place, upon which she joined and I followed. Neither the lady nor I should need to justify our membership of this board, and I find your remarks, and their implications, mildly offensive. If the administration and/or moderation find our joining at the same time untoward, or in some way prejudicial to the welfare of this forum, it is up to those parties to advise us accordingly, and take what action they deem necessary.
As for the lady's published views on the matter of the UN, Israel, and so on, I respect her right to those views but do not necessarily share them in every respect. I am aware that the actions of the Zionist state are a sensitive issue for Americans, particularly those with Jewish connections, and generally (but not always) avoid discussion upon that subject - much as I do upon the subject of religious beliefs.
Having said that, it is my opinion that discussion boards such as this are a great advantage to people like myself - still in the throes of the education process, and not yet as experienced in the ways of the world as I would like to be - provided we can avoid not only political partisanship, but inflexible class and national alignment as well.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
I'm interested in what you mean by this, and how you think it's possible?
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
We had a thread going on our American board, seeking suggestions as to which UK board might be desirable. Most of us had never even left comments on the Guardian's website.
This board was suggested, and those of us interested in international matters or the UK itself agreed to join here, together.
If you look at my first ever post, on Irish Slavery, the lady that posts next after me is a "neighbor" of mine from the other board.
Here is the link to that thread:
Kindly Reccomend the UK Version of PH
Nothing nefarious is happening. I suppose Leo2 may wince a bit, if he thinks someone British has been less than kind to me, just as I do when I think someone American has been less than kind to him, on the board where we met. We have been friends a few years now, and if he were only 40, 50 years older, I would try to seduce him.
He really is a lovely young man.
We are not socks, and we are not here to damage your brilliant online community in any way.
I hope that allays some not-unreasonable fears you have. If not, feel free to ask more questions of me.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Nope. Probably never will; I am not attracted to the climate.
As for the UN, I defy anyone to defend the Security Council's pattern of condemning everything Israel does, to the point that it is one long, biased, irrelevant screed.
Leo2
Vexatious correspondent
Well, basically a lot of people seem to identify as either left wing or right wing as a political class (at least this is what I have found on the couple of US fora I have frequented,) and express dismissal to the point of caricature, of the philosophies of 'the other side'. The sociology involved is often also affected by class distinctions - another element of 'us and them'.
So people are put into several conceptual boxes, and assumed to engage in group think. Exemplified by opening statements such as "You liberals ..." or "You conservatives ..."
I think what is possible, when engaging in discussion with people of obviously different socio-political philosophies, is the examination and analysis of the case they are making, in a polite and non-confrontational manner, and proceeding from that point to any possible mutual understanding. But it is quite a lot of hard work, often involving compromise of one's own philosophies, and requires a common purpose, and mutual respect, on the part of both people involved.
There will be some things upon which we will never agree, but upon which we can agree to disagree in an agreeable manner. And it is unlikely that such a process of examination and analysis will result in either party altering his viewpoint 180 degrees. But a few degrees here and there may well result in seeing some part of an heretofore invisible philosophy.
I am totally apolitical in the party political sense, but I have my own views - born of my upbringing, education, and environment - as to how society ought to be run for the benefit of the majority of citizens. Those views, while strongly held, are not necessarily set in concrete, and exposure to other, properly articulated points of view may well alter them.
I'm sorry, I'm not very good at this - but does any of this go some way to answering you questions?
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
They condemn the Isreali state's pattern of behaviour because it's behaviour worthy of condemnation.
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
Well, not really. I wanted to provoke the novel idea that Americans usually do best for other people when we stay the hell out of their conflicts. But hey, I am not ashamed to support Israel.
You want to subject any nation's law and order practices to an international court? Or its "self-defense" war-mongering against other nations? How about we start with MINE.
Meanwhile, you cannot reasonably hold Israel to the Geneva convention (although they very rarely lapse from it) while allowing the Arab terrorists to commit any grotesque mayhem they can think of without fear of international condemnation. That is a recipe for more violence, and it makes you the cook.
No, by all means, let's start with the human rights organizations. But let's no make more out of a single Arab casualty than we do out of the OTHER findings of these groups. Arab women are still not able to live free and dignified lives. They cannot parent their children fully. The little girls are still too often in danger of sexual mutilation.
It is vital that Israeli soldiers and police are as disciplined as humanely possible. Every Arab civilian casualty that could have been avoided is a martyr and a cause for yet more violence. But Israel does discipline these people and some have been sent to prison, for attacks on Arabs. I don't know that they can perform any better than they already do.
I don't read Hebrew. I also don't spend 40 hours a week reading about the ME. I try to do a few longform articles a month, and read the news in the Israeli Times, which has an English version.
I gave Al Jazerra every chance, but they are just too biased for my taste. I also follow news of the India-Pakistan conflict, and found that news outlet was unhelpful.
It's still happening. One of my most serious criticisms of my fellow American "liberals" is this altered view. They can do chapter and verse on the ME, but aren't even aware of the CURRENT racial discrimination our government inflicts on our fellow citizens who are Native, or what drives that discrimination. Not a care for their American neighbors; just a bunch of unthinking bloviating about how terrible Israel is, because that is what HuffPo and Slate have decided they should think.
By "problem" do you mean the NATO countries should make war on Israel, until every Jew there is dead or has fled? Because if not, your intestinal problems are your own to cope with. Airing the view that Israel was not legitimate in 1948 and is not legitimate now does nothing to weaken Jewish resolve as to Israel -- but it does embolden Arab terrorists. You give aid and comfort to people who clearly, are the enemy of freedom lovers the world over.
He was correct. How much more peace would there be today if every Arab had been expelled from Israel in 1948 or 1967, they way most Arab nations expelled their Jewish citizens? These people WOULD have been happier, making homes in Arab nations, rather than clinging on inside Israel. But the Jews were loathe to engage in action that was in any way akin to the "ethnic cleansing" they had just endured in Europe.
No question. Whether you think this was defensible, ethically, is a complex question with a doubtless fascinating answer that changes exactly fuck all of the circumstances the Israelis find themselves in today. I also feel terrible about the way Americans have stolen land from the Native peoples here. Giving it back is not a means of addressing that injustice any rational person would promote.
O, the arrogance. Why is Israel the ONLY nation on the planet that is not able to mange its own law and order challenges without half the western world trying to hold a mock trial over every arrest? If you gave the US police murders HALF the time and attention you devote to the "children throwing stones at tanks" in Israel, the MILLIONS of black Americans here would feel an uptick in their lives IMMEDIATELY. But for the attention the Guardian paid and pays to this issue, do you think a damned thing would change?
You can make the world a better place. Just not by interfering with Israel to the degree that you do. (The generic "you", not you personally.)
S'rly? The settlements are the single most effective, nonviolent response Israel has to new outbreaks of Arab violence. How many MILLIONS of lives have been saved, because Israel did not respond every time with a military or police action? How many of those lives saved were Arabian?
You want to complain about unnecessary violence to the Israelis, but say nothing to the Arab terrorists?
THAT is doublespeak, and yes, it is despicable.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Despite the fact that I have done?
Pinkie_Flamingo
American & Annoyed
BULLSHIT. They condemn Israel's behavior because they have fallen victim to a sophisticated campaign of anti-semitic propaganda.
The Arab terrorists attacking Israel are indistinguishable from those attacking the West. Unless you applauded 9/11 and excused it because the US "had it coming for supporting Israel", you are suffering from an enormous logic gap in your thinking that most young American people of a certain humanitarian bent seem to have acquired, en masse, about 10 years ago.
There is no difference as to the funding, or goals, or organisations between HAMAS and ISIS. You might think it was wrong for the US to extra-legally execute Osama bin Laden, but I don't. I think we should assassinate every one of the leaders of these terror groups, but then, I am a lot less willing to tolerate pointless violence against unarmed civilians than most.
Whether those civilians are Jews in Israel, or English in Britain, or Nepalese in Pakistan.
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