Libertarian and Liberal

[butchersapron]

Alright's post here gets a "whoosh". Oh the intellectual cut and thrust.

This, this is the man to rely on in a discussion about economcis/politics.

 

[Darios]

kabbes has said quite a lot of this already but if somebody is claiming to be no-borders and is putting forward policies that are pro-borders - and in this case, ones directly addressing the bogeyman of "asylum seekers" - when there are things they could be doing, I'm inclined to suspect that they don't actually mean the former. People in NL still claim to be socialist after all, the BNP claim not to be racist, etc etc.

Jesus christ I don't know how to make this any clearer, and it's pretty damn clear on the manifesto. The libertarian philosophy entails, long term, some kind of open-borders strategy, however, we starting in the here and now, where LPUK would have to deal with an economy and infrastructure that is predicated on already existing border controls etc. You seem to be making an incredibly childish argument - that they're no good because they won't institute open borders immediately upon reaching power. I'm having to guess - as you refuse to outline your position - that you *are* one of the open borders lot. It's no wonder so many people think you lot are batshit insane when what you're looking for is unqualified open borders tomorrow.

"Pre-emptive defence" isn't a quote from them, it's the justification that has recently been claimed for engaging in aggressive military action by right-wing parties.

So why even bother with the smear...?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Wow, how come you can be perfectly civil when kabbes says pretty much the same thing? Is there a secret sign I need to make or something? "You seem to be making an incredibly childish argument - that they're no good because they won't institute open borders immediately upon reaching power." - I never said anything remotely like that.

 

[butchersapron]

Wow I'm getting the full service Urban smear treatment here. Getting desperate? You're definitely making Al-Kahoul's case for him/her. For the record, so far it's only one person on ignore - and that was after his drunken posturing antics last week that permanently put me off of interacting with him.

Odd that you forget to mention wishing the full BNP/CI8 treatment on him/me two weeks before your ignore provoking 'incident'. You're living is a dream world, you really are. The dissapointed tories of the libertarian party, and you think there's some common ground between that and proper anachists?

 

[Blagsta]

If you say so. The right-libertarians can trace their roots quite clearly through the mutualist thinking ushered in by the likes of Tucker in the U.S. combined with the individualists such as Stirner. But there you go. You weren't even familiar with the mutualist, agorist, geo strains were you, and have an incredibly heavy reliance on Marx so I don't hold out much hope for having a sensible discussion with you on this.

Yes you can trace it if you distort the history.

Oh noes. Well you're not going to define us all out of existence. Or perhaps you could make a claim for Intellectual Property Rights hahahahahaha . So it's tough shit for you really. Interestingly the right-libertarian understandings of "anarchism" accomodate and allow for left-libertarian understandings but - as you've made abundantly clear, the converse isn't true.

I just think you should be more honest about your hijackings of the word.

Kyser's observations here, just get a lame slogan "anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron". Great answer kid.

it's been done to death...although I note you conveniently fail to mention my expansion on the topic.

Alright's post here gets a "whoosh". Oh the intellectual cut and thrust.

You think Alright deserves a more meanigful response to his trolling? Be my guest.

Your response to Kyser here indicates ignorance regarding what I pointed about above, that the right-libertarian "anarchism" contains your - privileged - socialised definition of anarchism (and thus contains left-libertarian "anarchy"). If anything the "shoe-horning" goes the other way and my posts here are more of an olive branch (like so many others offered in the past by right-libertarians to the left) that you chaps consistently snub. So be it.

I can't make head nor tail of what you're saying here tbh.

You completely fail to deal with Weltweit's objections which begin here. And you suddenly revise your notion of property and claim that was what you meant 'all along'. It looks like what actually happened is that when it was pointed out that even someone like Proudhon had a nominal notion of property you panicked and backtracked. And the distinction made, as I pointed out, and as Weltweit tried to draw out is clearly a slippery slope.

Resorting to lies and distortion again I see. I didn't revise my notion of private property at all. As I pointed out to you, we were having a discussion about socialism, I was using the term in its correct context. That you have to resort to this sort of trick shows you up for the weasel you obviously are.

I also make it abundantly clear on that thread where you're throwing in the cheap shots.

Of course you did, by deliberatly misrepresenting and distorting what I said.

Now where *I* failed on that thread was answering VPs last few points (apologies VP). You and I simply came to an impasse. VP made much better points as it appears s/he understands the right-libertarian argument and responds accordingly.

Aha. That's why you bailed out when I talked about your abstracted needs and social needs.

Made of fail Blagsta. First you accuse me of seeking succour with Socialists, I ask you to quote me, then you come out with that vagueness above - this time about anarchists. Confused?

Yes, you do seem to be. You know what I'm talking about if you can be honest. You made some comments about

Have it your way. We have more in common than you'd ever admit and it's a real shame that you can't see that. The differences, ultimately come down to micro-economics - at least in the case of anarchism.

p.s. we're shaking in our boots.

If you think we have things in common, then this just illustrates my main point.

Wow I'm getting the full service Urban smear treatment here. Getting desperate? You're definitely making Al-Kahoul's case for him/her. For the record, so far it's only one person on ignore - and that was after his drunken posturing antics last week that permanently put me off of interacting with him.

Smears? Start being more honest in your debating and stop the deliberate lies.

 

[nino_savatte]

You are (by implication) bemoaning the fact that some people like to align / smear Socialism with National Socialism and effectively go ahead and make the same smear towards us. Great work NS.

If the cap fits. You were the one who was suggesting that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism.

I argue that anarcho-capitalism / market anarchism is a form of anarchism.

It isn't: it's libertarianism or possibly classic liberalism taken to an extreme. That isn't a smear, that's an observation.

Btw, doesn't Alan Duncan (Conservative MP for Hexham) claim to be a "libertarian" of the market variety?

 

[Blagsta]

If the cap fits. You were the one who was suggesting that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism.



It isn't: it's libertarianism or possibly classic liberalism taken to an extreme. That isn't a smear, that's an observation.

Btw, doesn't Alan Duncan (Conservative MP for Hexham) claim to be a "libertarian" of the market variety?

Darios will argue that capitalism is anarchism until he's blue in the face. Apparently he has an MA to prove he's right.

 

[Blagsta]

Odd that you forget to mention wishing the full BNP/CI8 treatment on him/me two weeks before your ignore provoking 'incident'. You're living is a dream world, you really are. The dissapointed tories of the libertarian party, and you think there's some common ground between that and proper anachists?

I seem to recall that was the thread where he whinged that Sheffield anarchists had spurned his advances. Why he thinks that his politics which favour big business and wealthy landlords would be appealing to class struggle anarchists, fuck knows.

 

[butchersapron]

I'd be very interested hear what the LIberatarian party folks think of the Anarchist Federation or Class War etc and where/what they feel they could work with 'us' on. Have you put this work-proposal to the party darios?

 

[Blagsta]

I'd pay money to be at that meeting!

 

[Al Kahul]

Al, debate is about accepting that some people will disagree with you, sometimes heatedly, maybe because they feel very strongly about the issues concerned. But if you have a coherent position and know what you're talking about, then you should be able to stand your ground.

I'm a freedom of speech fundamentalist; I think everyone has the right to say what they think. However, if what they say deserves criticism, then they shouldn't be surprised if I exercise my freedom of speech and criticise it.

There are plenty of threads on here where people have thrown the dummy out of the pram because they were annoyed when people disagreed with them; have a root around, you'll see what I mean.

thats all very well Danny but being immediately insulted/Abused/ accused of being a variety of other people then being lied about is just not acceptable to me .It may be to you . The people I ignore have every right to speak and I have every right NOT to listen to their speech especially when I find it offensive and dishonest.

 

[Al Kahul]

To be fair to Al Kahul, s/he identified him/her self as being to the left of the an-cap / market anarchists and right-libertarians / mini-archists. S/he identified with agorist and mutualist anarchists. Therefore s/he is correct to say that it is a 'left' position relative to the right-libertarians.

Look at Blagsta's response to this - he's either ignorant of these other anarchist / libertarian philosophies (which is pretty rich considering his repeated charges of disbelief that I've read any anarchist literature), or he is aware of what they're about and is just being an arse. Either way it's not good is it? And it neatly highlights the bunker mentality and simplistic anarchist ghetto that some of the regular posters appear to sit in. I thought Blagsta might be all over the likes of SEK3, but he's not. Why?

You are absolutely spot on . Indeed I disagree with SEK3 only on the grounds of Intellectual property because 1) I live of intellectual and 2) if it is abolished then inventors won't bother investing considerable resources into deveoping their ideas.

 

[Al Kahul]

Anarchism is about lack of government NOT about how you distribute money. Anarchy extends rightwards until it hits minarchism who ,because they believe a a state -albeit a restrictive on cannot be anarchists - anarchists extend leftwards to Syndicalists who believe in a state as well .All that in between is Anarchist.

Most libertarians aren't anarchists -some are . The UK libertarian party are on the very right fringe of libertarianism 'they are really the liberal wing of UKIP and not Anarchos at all.Socialists are the very antithesis of anarchism with their absolute states controlled by "vanguards".

 

[butchersapron]

It's not just about that. It's about far far more than that. It's about powerr and hierachy, about democracy, about equality, and related stuff as well. That's why this doesn't work - you take the crudest 'anarchism possible and pretend it's the general model.

I'll not even start on the free-market being the inversion of the classical idea of private property (i .e produced by the labour of an individual and then owned by them) not the expression of it as the whole squad has me on ignore.

Let's face it this blackboard libertarianism is very much like the La Vey school of satanism for naughty boys and their sci-fi books.

 

[butchersapron]

Anarchism is about lack of government NOT about how you distribute money. Anarchy extends rightwards until it hits minarchism who ,because they believe a a state -albeit a restrictive on cannot be anarchists - anarchists extend leftwards to Syndicalists who believe in a state as well .All that in between is Anarchist.

You throw around terms here when it's clear that you don;'t iknow what they mean. Anachist-syndicalists do not believe in the state, nor are they the extreme left of anarchism. Please, go back to the monday club and trying to sell this guff to your natural constituents - dissapopinted tories.

 

[danny la rouge]

thats all very well Danny but being immediately insulted/Abused/ accused of being a variety of other people then being lied about is just not acceptable to me .It may be to you . The people I ignore have every right to speak and I have every right NOT to listen to their speech especially when I find it offensive and dishonest.

Do you have examples of:

- gratuitous offensiveness
- dishonesty
- lies about you

That we might judge for ourselves?

 

[Darios]

I seem to recall that was the thread where he whinged that Sheffield anarchists had spurned his advances. Why he thinks that his politics which favour big business and wealthy landlords would be appealing to class struggle anarchists, fuck knows.

What a surprise, another impasse. Another 'vague recollection' that happens to reinforce your dogmatism and bigotry.

I said nothing of the sort. In fact many of the Sheffield radical types I know personally are rapidly becoming fellow travelers. It's the die-hards like you I'm talking about. The type who threw out the Libertarian Alliance from the bookfair and refuse to acknowledge the attempts at bridge building. It's your loss not ours.

Butchers et al are indeed more than likely going to end up with the "BNP / C18" treatment because you're alienating people who otherwise might have sided with you like a perpetual hemorrhage at a rapid clip and hardly gaining any new recruits, if any at all (too busy blathering on a message board perhaps, which has become your only source of validation?). Every day you become more irrelevant, more despised and reviled and your response is simply to reiterate the same old, tired dogma (Blagsta, yourself being a case in point with your over reliance on Marx).

You're not just alienating new people, you're also rapidly losing old, as the more creative and free-thinking amongst you escape from the strait-jacket and go to other groups such as the ecologists/greens, feminists, secularists, libertarians/an-caps and single issue groups. The hemorrhage is fatal and you only have yourselves to blame.

 

[butchersapron]

And when the C18 nutters come knocking again in Sheffield, I'm not getting in their way this time. I look forward to you lot getting your brains bashed out. Then instead of you just mindlessly mouthbreathing the same tired recycled crap from on high its just going to be a straight flat out fight between us right-libertarians and the right and left statists..

The party recieved nil income in 2007
The Party incurred no expenses during 2007

The Party did not undertake any public activity in 2007

Let battle commence!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Darios will argue that capitalism is anarchism until he's blue in the face. Apparently he has an MA to prove he's right.

Any idea what subject his MA is in?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not just about that. It's about far far more than that. It's about powerr and hierachy, about democracy, about equality, and related stuff as well. That's why this doesn't work - you take the crudest 'anarchism possible and pretend it's the general model.

Because to do otherwise would see their dominoes fall.

I'll not even start on the free-market being the inversion of the classical idea of private property (i .e produced by the labour of an individual and then owned by them) not the expression of it as the whole squad has me on ignore.

Let's face it this blackboard libertarianism is very much like the La Vey school of satanism for naughty boys and their sci-fi books.

Pseudo rather than actual, then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you have examples of:

- gratuitous offensiveness
- dishonesty
- lies about you

That we might judge for ourselves?

Tut tut. Don't ask that, danny. You'll be branded as part of the Fridgemagnet/butchersapron/ViolentPanda/Nino_Savatte axis and put on "ignore"!

 

[danny la rouge]

Tut tut. Don't ask that, danny. You'll be branded as part of the Fridgemagnet/butchersapron/ViolentPanda/Nino_Savatte axis and put on "ignore"!

The Axis of Evil?

 

[kabbes]

Possibly the ex-axis?

Or the why-axis?

Zzzzzz.

 

[Xipe Totec]

So yes zero points for everyone here, and I suspect I'll have to wait for Phil Dwyer to actually answer the question.

can i has definitionz?

 

[Blagsta]

What a surprise, another impasse. Another 'vague recollection' that happens to reinforce your dogmatism and bigotry.

I said nothing of the sort. In fact many of the Sheffield radical types I know personally are rapidly becoming fellow travelers. It's the die-hards like you I'm talking about. The type who threw out the Libertarian Alliance from the bookfair and refuse to acknowledge the attempts at bridge building. It's your loss not ours.

Butchers et al are indeed more than likely going to end up with the "BNP / C18" treatment because you're alienating people who otherwise might have sided with you like a perpetual hemorrhage at a rapid clip and hardly gaining any new recruits, if any at all (too busy blathering on a message board perhaps, which has become your only source of validation?). Every day you become more irrelevant, more despised and reviled and your response is simply to reiterate the same old, tired dogma (Blagsta, yourself being a case in point with your over reliance on Marx).

You're not just alienating new people, you're also rapidly losing old, as the more creative and free-thinking amongst you escape from the strait-jacket and go to other groups such as the ecologists/greens, feminists, secularists, libertarians/an-caps and single issue groups. The hemorrhage is fatal and you only have yourselves to blame.

You really are living in a fantasy world aren't you?

[edit]

Here it is

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8003068&postcount=218

a quite bizarre rant about how you have been rejected by Sheffield anarchists.

Why are you types so divorced from reality? One of you lot was trying to convince me that trees were free market capitalists once. Totally nuts.

 

[Blagsta]

Any idea what subject his MA is in?

prevarication and lying quite probably

 

[Al Kahul]

Do you have examples of:

- gratuitous offensiveness
- dishonesty
- lies about you

That we might judge for ourselves?

its my choice and I'm not making lists just to give amusement to BP,NS,BA to witter about them.

I can discuss with you on any issue if you like (other than those 3 clowns) since you seemed to have retained some basic politeness.

 

[Blagsta]

its my choice and I'm not making lists just to give amusement to BP,NS,BA to witter about them.

I can discuss with you on any issue if you like (other than those 3 clowns) since you seemed to have retained some basic politeness.

All I saw was you being challenged on a few things. You then threw your toys out of your pram.

 

[danny la rouge]

All I saw was you being challenged on a few things. You then threw your toys out of your pram.

This was also my reading of events. If that's wrong, I'm always happy to be put right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This was also my reading of events. If that's wrong, I'm always happy to be put right.

It'd be hard for him to "put you right" given that his claims re: lies, offensiveness and dishonesty are, to be frank, offensively dishonest lies.